Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The Pharisees were the hellfire preaches of the day; they were the ones that taught that angels carried the righteous to a place on the right side of Hades they called "Abraham's Bosom" and the wicked to the left side of Hades to be tortures by wicked angels. They even partitioned Hades by a great gulf. Now where did they get these detailed ideas? And why would Jesus tell their extra-biblical story back to them? Would He be trying to scare them with their own story? I certainly don't think so.

    Hi Vander.....Both the Essenes and the Pharisees believed in postmortem punishment and rewards; this wasn't a belief peculiar to the Pharisees. Jesus himself taught "extra-biblical" apocalyptic eschatology (similar to that found in Essene texts) to his disciples in the synoptic gospels — such as the casting of the wicked to Gehenna for fiery judgment, the notion of the "Son of Man" seated on his "throne of glory" who would judge individuals and assign eternal destinies, etc. Jesus is not depicted as simply using "extra-biblical" eschatology against Pharisees but he used notions not found in the OT with his own disciples. That is only natural, as his views were very much aligned with what is found in Essenism and not at all like what was taught by the Sadducees, who were the real eschatological conservatives. But I think it really misses the point of the story to say that Jesus wouldn't be "trying to scare them with their own story", and so the eschatology is only satirically adopted. The polemic against the Pharisees in the synoptic gospels is usually aimed at their hypocritical actions and not at what they teach (e.g. "The Pharisees sit in Moses' seat so you must obey them and do everything they tell you, but do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach," Matthew 23:2-3). I believe this is the case here. Earlier in the same chapter, the Pharisees scoff at Jesus when he said that one cannot serve both God and mammon, "you will either hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other" (Luke 16:13-14). The Pharisees obviously regarded themselves as serving God but they were really "lovers of money" (v. 14). Thus from the perspective of the author, they had good reason to be scared by that story.

    It seems to me that there are rich people that love the Lord and will be with Abraham in the afterlife. I would say that neither wealth nor poverty is an indication of ones love for or approval of God. Abraham, Job, Joseph, David etc. were all very rich and influential people. Certainly their comeuppance will not resemble that of the Rich Man in this account.

    Sure, but the story is not concerned with faithful men of former generations who received their wealth from God as a blessing. The story is concerned with the rich of the present generation (a "wicked and perverse generation" according to Luke 9:41, 11:29, Acts 2:40, etc.) who are indifferent to the poor and who are lovers of wealth. That includes the Pharisees of Luke 16:14. Thus the rich man of the parable displayed his wealth publically with his clothes and he "feasted sumptuously every day" in sight of the poor (16:19). The comeuppance is aimed at the Pharisees, of whom a few verses earlier Jesus says: "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight" (v. 15).

    Poverty and sickness were looked upon as a sign of sin and judgment by the Pharisees. But, the Pharisees at least gave hope to the destitute, teaching that they, accepting God's judgments, would find themselves at death, in a very literal (but extra-biblical) place they referred to as, "Abraham's Bosom". So Jesus put the destitute Lazarus right where the Pharisees assigned him in the afterlife. In effect then, Jesus was, like you, teaching Pharisaic doctrine. "Bad now, good later".

    I'm not sure if the Pharisees depicted the poor as intrinsically having a reward, which is what Jesus certainly taught in this gospel (e.g. Luke 6:20), and which reflects the views of the Essenes as well (cf. the Epistle of Enoch). My impression is that they taught that one's reward is dependent on fidelity to the Torah, which they regarded as themselves respecting. But even if they did promise that the poor would receive their blessings after death or in the resurrection, they did not construe themselves as having "bad later". That is what, according to the Lukan Jesus, is wrong with that picture.

    It is important not to ignore the dualism in the author's polemic against wealth ("you will either hate the one and love the other") and the relationship between this and the eschatological dualism implicit in the Lazarus story and other judgment scenarios (such as the sheep/goats of Matthew 25). The poor are promised the kingdom of God (Luke 6:20), but "woe to you who are rich for you have already received your comfort" (v. 24). This thought is echoed in the Lazarus story when the rich man is told that he already received "your good things in your lifetime" (16:25). In the story of the rich ruler, Jesus tells him that "it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God" (18:25), and what is emphasized is the giving of most or all of one's wealth to the poor (12:33, 18:22, 19:8, 21:1-4; cf. Acts 2:44-45, 4:32-37, 5:1-9, etc.), that allows one to "store up treasures in heaven". The same thought is expressed in ch. 16 in language that echoes the Essene dualism found in the Dead Sea Scrolls: "The sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the sons of light. I tell you, use mammon to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings" (16:8-9). The Lukan view of wealth and the rich in such passages as Luke 6:24 and 16:13-15, 19-31 is close to what we find in the Epistle of Enoch:

    "Woe to you rich, for in your riches you have trusted, from your riches you will depart because you have not remembered the Most High in the days of your riches.... Woe to you sinners, for your riches make you appear to be righteous, but your heart convicts you of being sinners and this word will be a testimony against you, a reminder of your evil deeds. Woe to you who devour the finest of the wheat and quaff wine from the mixing bowl while you tread on the lowly with your might. Woe to you who drink water from every foundation for quickly you will be repaid, and case and dry up, because you have forsaken the foundation of life....Woe to you who acquire gold and silver unjustly and say, 'We have become very welathy, and we have gotten possessions, and we have acquired all that we have wished, for silver we have gathered up in our treasuries, and many goods in our houses; and as water they are poured out.' You err! For your wealth will not remain, but will quickly ascend from you.... For men will put on adornments as women, and fair colors more than virgins, in kingship and majesty and power. And silver and gold will be among them as food, and in their houses these will be poured out like water, because they have no knowledge or understanding. Thus they will perish, together with all their possessions, and all their splendor and honor, and for dishonor and slaughter and great destitution, their spirits will be cast into the fiery furnace.... Woe to you, dead sinners. When you die in your sinful wealth, those who are like you say about you, 'Blessed are the sinners, all their days that they have seen. And now they have died with goods and wealth, and affliction and murder they have not seen in their life. They have died in splendor, and judgment was not executed on them in their life.' Know that down to Sheol they will lead your souls, and there they will be in great distress, and in darkness and in a snare and in a flaming fire. Into great judgment your souls will enter and the great judgment will be for all the generations of eternity. Woe to you, you will have no peace" (1 Enoch 94:8, 96:4-6, 97:7-10, 98:1-3, 103:5-8).

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Leolaia,

    Hey, I like your style despite the fog index. :o)

    <<Both the Essenes and the Pharisees believed in postmortem punishment and rewards; this wasn't a belief peculiar to the Pharisees.>>

    OK. (but irrelevant since Jesus was not dealing with the Essenes in this passage so.... :o)

    <<Jesus himself taught "extra-biblical" apocalyptic eschatology>>

    OK. (but He was the Son of God so that grants Him some priveleges...after all :o)

    <<Jesus is not depicted as simply using "extra-biblical" eschatology against Pharisees but he used notions not found in the OT with his own disciples.>>

    That's water off the ducks back since I don't believe for a moment that Jesus was correcting their extra-biblical eschatology. And remember, this was not an eschatology that Jesus or the scriptures invented. He was playing into the hand that was dealt and adopted by the Pharisees during the intertestamental period.

    <<The polemic against the Pharisees in the synoptic gospels is usually aimed at their hypocritical actions and not at what they teach (e.g. "The Pharisees sit in Moses' seat so you must obey them and do...>>

    True...and this case is no different. But that did not stop Jesus from condemning and ridiculing their traditions (not supported by Moses); traditions that in their minds at least, justified ignoring the poor or dishonouring parents etc.

    <<But even if they did promise that the poor would receive their blessings after death or in the resurrection, they did not construe themselves as having "bad later".>>

    Exactly! That is the punch of this parody. ..... Unfortunately I don't have time to finish this...I have an art lesson to teach this afternoon. But please wait until I get back to you and finish up. I don't like to leave loose ends.

    Your Too Busy Friend in Christ,

    Vander

    P.S. BTW I'm preaching on Luke 7:36-50 on the 17th. Got any insights?

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Everyone,

    Pehaps I should elaborate here to answer what I believe is a key question.

    HOW DID THE PHARISEES AND OTHER TEACHERS OF THE LAW USE THEIR TRADITIONAL TEACHINGS TO JUSTIFY THE TOTAL ABDICATION OF THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO THE POOR (I.E. THEIR REFUSAL TO EVEN "LIFT A FINGER" TO ALLEVIATE THEIR BURDENS Lu. 11:46)? PERHAPS WE CAN GET SOME INSIGHT BY SPENDING A FEW MOMENTS LOOKING AT THE STORY ITSELF:

    THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS is a classic "reversal of fortune" story. Before death, the rich man was well off while Lazarus was in physical torments. But after death, it's Lazarus who is well off and the rich man is experiencing torment. Before death, Lazarus was begging crumbs from the rich man; now the rich man is begging droplets of relief from Lazarus.

    THE KEY QUESTION: Why were their fortunes reversed? In other words, why did Lazarus end up in Abrahamic bliss and the rich man in torments?

    What reason does the text give for the reversal in their fortunes? Let's examine verse 25, the punch line of this parody . You will recall that the rich man had just made a desperate plea for Lazarus to "lift a finger" to help relieve his misery. Jesus has a somewhat dispassionate Abraham respond to this appeal by dispensing some rather outrageous logic that completely ignores the moral dimension of either man's life.

    25. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy life

    time receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil

    things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

    Abraham paternalistically justifies the rich man's intolerable situation by reminding him of a simple rule of parity. To paraphrase here, Abraham says, "Don't you remember Son; it's those who experience bad things in this life that can expect good things in the next...". Now where in the world did such logic originate? Actually, the logic, originated with the Pharisees themselves. Jesus was merely having Abraham parrot back to the rich man, the Pharisee's own unhelpful counsel to the poor and tormented. Visualize for a moment, a Pharisee giving the following advice to a destitute widow who has just approached him for assistance.

    Daughter, remember God punishes to the 3rd and 4th generation;

    Your present suffering is obviously His judgment. We would really

    like to help, but, as you know, it is God who has fixed this wide

    gulf of disparity between us - so that those who would traverse

    that gulf and ease your torment, even a little, only find themselves

    contravening His judgment. Lazarus(God is your help) my daughter!

    If we help to alleviate your torment now, you will only experience

    much worse later. But if you faithfully bear His judgment for your

    sins and those of your fathers, and endure bad things in this life, you

    will surely enjoy the comforts of Abraham's Bosom in the hereafter.

    JESUS HAD PIQUED THE PHARISEES INTEREST AS HE INTRODUCED THE STORY OF LAZARUS AND THE RICH MAN. He talked about Lazarus' poverty and struggles, and in death, he had him carried off to Abraham's Bosom. You can imagine the Pharisees nodding their heads in agreement here. But what the Pharisees were not expecting, was having their own concept of "redemptive suffering" reversed and extended to its logical conclusion. "Bad now - Good later", then becomes, "Good now - Bad later". [Savor for one moment, the poetic justice of having Abraham, the ultimate Patriarch and religious authority, rationalizing the Pharisee's exclusion from the kingdom of God, by turning their own dispassionate logic back on them.] The twist in the rich man's fate sends the Pharisees reeling, and more so as they hear laughter swelling up from the crowd who were all too familiar with the Pharisee's self-justifying rhetoric.

    The Rich Man and Lazarus then is a masterful expose of the Pharisees. Through satire, Jesus effectively strips the Pharisees of any pretence of righteousness and thoroughly discredits their justification for ignoring the poor in Israel. They are now left no cloak for their sins or their hardhearted refusal to repent. Their refusal to repent despite all God's blessings, instructions and possible miracles is the real point of this passage. And true to Abraham's prediction (verse 31), only weeks later, after Jesus actually raised one named Lazarus, the Pharisees simply react with vehement determination to put both Jesus and Lazarus to death.

    (Jn.11:47, 53)

    BY WAY OF SUMMARY: When we examine Luke 16:19-31 in the light of history, we note a rather suspicious resemblance between Jesus’ story of The Rich Man and Lazarus , and the traditional teachings of the Pharisees. But Jesus was not setting out to confirm Pharisaic beliefs about the afterlife. True, he told their story; the same story they had told a thousand times before, but with one important difference; a rather ironic twist you might say, that sees the Rich Man waking up in torment in Hades and being denied the slightest assistance by application of the same logic whereby he had regularly denied the poor and destitute. It would not take much imagination to visualize the headlines in the Jerusalem Chronicle the morning after Jesus told His version of their story, humorously conveying how the Lord had turned the tables on the Pharisees in the afterlife.

    Satire is serious business. It is most effectively employed when reason is not welcome. Satire embraces irony, parody, condemnation and even ridicule. Because it is often biting, it should be used carefully; perhaps as a last resort. Satire entertains the ridiculous as a possibility - to highlight the incongruities of immoral or irrational positions. Satire however, is slippery footing for doctrine.

    Vander

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Leolaia,

    Just a comment on context before finishing up my response to your last.

    The Rich Man and Lazarus is the last in a series of 5 stories Jesus told consecutively to a mixed audience consisting of his disciples, various respected religious leaders, as well as publicans and sinners. (Luke 15:1) The first 3 stories, the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost/prodical son, were definitely parables designed to provide comfort for the oppressed common people in the audience who needed to hear that God was seeking them and rejoicing over their movement toward repentance. The remaining 2 stories on the other hand, were obviously designed to bring discomfort to the religious leaders; the narrative of the dishonest steward, and the account currently under consideration.

    <<the story is not concerned with faithful men of former generations who received their wealth from God as a blessing. The story is concerned with the rich of the present generation (a "wicked and perverse generation"...)>>

    Neither wealth, nor poverty by themselves, are an indication of morality in any generation. This story, and particulary Abraham's paternaliastic response to the Rich Man's plea is devoid of moral content. Abraham merely plays the role of the Pharisees.

    You know I see this account as "parody" designed to undermine Pharisaic authority. Do you see the literary form as "parable" or "historical narration"?

    In Christ,

    Vander

  • Mary
    Mary

    It's hilarious how either JW apologetics or others who obviously believe in 'soul sleep' will drone on and on for a thousand years in their desperate attempt to try and explain away the troublesome passage in Luke which clearly describes an afterlife. 'Lazarus is represented by [fill in the blank], the Rich Man represents [fill in the blank]. It's really referring to [fill in the blank, depending on what your pre-conceived ideas are].

    The rather bizarre explanations that both Vanderhoven7 and djeggnog have tried to put forth demonstrates the mind block for those who try to claim that the bible does not teach that there is afterlife. JW's are not the only ones who do this. Below is the link showing what the Worldwide Church of God's long winded-assed spin on this parable is:

    http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p228.html

    Here's the Christadelphian's view.....it almost mirrors the WTS:

    http://www.christadelphianals.org/heaven_and_hell.htm

    And here's the Seventh Day Adventist's two cents on the subject:

    http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q43.htm

    The bottom line is: Jesus gave parables but they were always based on true life events or situations that were real as is shown by the list below. There is not one, single parable listed that is based on a 'false doctrine':

    Parable Matthew Mark Luke John
    Alert servants 13:33-37
    Barren fig tree 13:6-9
    Bread of life 6:31-38
    Budding fig tree 24:32-35 13:28-32 21:29-33
    Children in market 11:16-19 7:31-35
    Christian light 5:14-16 4:21-23 8:16-18
    Dinner guests 14:15-24
    Divided kingdom 12:24-30 3:22-27 11:14-23
    Feast invitations 14:12-14
    Friend at midnight 11:5-13
    Good Samaritan 10:25-37
    Good shepherd 10:1-18
    Great physician 9:10-13 2:15-17 5:29-32
    Grooms attendants 9:14-15 2:18-20 5:33-35
    Growing seed 4:26-29
    Hidden treasure 13:44
    Householder 13:52
    Humbled guest 14:7-11
    King's war plans 14:31-33
    Laborers in vineyard 20:1-16
    Landowner 21:33-46 12:1-12 20:9-18
    Leaven 13:33 13:20-21
    Lost coin 15:8-10
    Lost sheep 15:4-7
    Marriage feast 22:1-14
    Mustard seed 13:31-32 4:30-32 13:18-19
    Net of fish 13:47-50
    New cloth 9:16 2:21 5:36
    New wine 9:17 2:22 5:37-39
    Pearl of great price 13:45-46
    Pharisee and tax collector 18:9-14
    Prodigal son 15:11-32
    Rich man & Lazarus 16:19-31
    Rich fool 12:16-21
    Salt without taste 5:13 9:50 14:34-35
    Servant's duty 17:7-10
    Sheep and goats 25:31-46
    Sign of Jonah 12:38-42 11:29-32
    Tares in field (part 1) 13:24-30
    Tares in field (part 2) 13:36-43
    Ten Minas 19:11-27
    Ten talents 25:14-30
    Ten virgins 25:1-13
    The Sower (part 1) 13:3-9 4:3-20 8:4-15
    The Sower (part 2) 13:18-23
    Two debtors 7:41-43
    Two sons 21:28-32
    Unclean spirit 12:43-45 11:24-26
    Unjust judge 18:1-8
    Unjust steward 16:1-13
    Unmerciful servant 18:21-35
    Unprepared builder 14:28-30
    Vine and branches 15:1-17
    Watching servants 12:35-40
    Wise builder 7:24-27 6:47-49
    Wise servant 24:45-51
    Wise steward 12:42-48

    The parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is not decrying riches or promoting poverty. It is one's attitude and what kind of a person you are that counts. Clearly the Rich Man was a haughty, arrogant fool who didn't give a rat's ass about anyone but himself. I think it's pretty clear from the illustration that Lazarus was a pretty humble guy. Didn't Jesus say that those who did not help his "brothers" who were sick, weak and hungry" would be "cut off"? Didn't he say in Matthew that his brothers who had been poor and hungry and sick to 'come...inherit the kingdom prepared by my father'?

    The bible say what the bible says. There are far more scriptures indicating a life after death, than a 'soul sleep'.

  • In
    In

    I don't have time to read through everything in this post, but someone tell me if my question is already answered.

    The Ezekiel thing has bothered me for a long time, but kinda merging Jewish and Christian belief, does it make sense to say that this is how things happen (simplified):

    1. Body dies, and soul goes to happy place or sad place until judgement day

    2. Judgement. At judgement, this is where Ezekiel 18:4 would apply: at this point the bad souls die while the good souls live.

    So at some point the soul that is sinning does in fact die, but it's not at the initial death of the body.

    Would that mean that the second death refers to the death of the sinning soul after judgement?

    Doesn't that jive with the timing given in Revs?

  • on the rocks
    on the rocks

    The person who studied with me had a tough time xplaining this to me.

  • debator
    debator

    While Jesus's parables often refered to real things/events/people in richly metaphorical terms (as in this case, the hypocritical leaders). They are definitely not meant to be taken as literal events in themselves. To do so is to go beyond any parable Jesus used.

    What was Jesus's view of the dead?

    Mark 5:39
    He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep."

    John 11:11
    After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

    1 Corinthians 15:20
    But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

    In context of what Jesus and the apostles state as to the condition of the dead, to then use this parable to postulate wildly against Jesus's own words on the actual condition of the dead is foolish at best.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    In context of what Jesus and the apostles state as to the condition of the dead, to then use this parable to postulate wildly against Jesus's own words on the actual condition of the dead is foolish at best.

    Yes, I'll go along with that. Hades the Greek word that is found in Luke 16 in appears 11 times in the New Testament. In the KJV, Hades is consistently translated as hell with one exception (I Cor.15:55) where it translates as grave. In the NIV hades is translated once as hell, once as death, twice as grave and twice as depths, while in the remaining 5 instances, it is left untranslated.

    All of the following Hades passages are quoted from the NIV in the order they appear in scripture. The word translating Hades is capitalized in every reference. As these Hades passages are read, please note the verses that teach that this is a place of perpetual torment.

    1. Mat.11:23 And you Capernaum, will you be lifted up to the skies?

    No you will go down to the DEPTHS.

    2. Mat.16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will

    build my church, and the gates of HADES will not overcome it.

    3. Lu.10:15 But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon, at the

    judgment than for you. And you Capernaum, will you be lifted up

    to the skies? No, you will go down to the DEPTHS. Lu.10:15

    4. Lu.16:23 (We have covered this unique text already)

    5. Acts 2:26,27 Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices;

    my body will also live in hope. (27) Because you will not abandon

    me to the GRAVE, nor will you let your Holy One undergo decay.

    6. Acts 2:31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of

    Christ, that He was not abandoned to the GRAVE, nor did His body

    undergo decay.

    7. I Cor.15:55 Where O death is your victory? Where O DEATH is your

    sting?

    8. Rev.1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive

    for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and HADES.

    9. Rev.6:8 I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider

    was named Death, and HADES was following close behind him.

    They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword,

    famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    10. Rev.20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and

    HADES gave up the dead that were in them and each person was

    judged according to what he had done.

    11. Rev.20:14 Then death and HADES were cast into the lake of fire.

    The lake of fire is the second death. Rev.20:14

    POST READING ANALYSIS:

    ASIDE FROM TORMENT, WHAT ARE SOME OF THE FACTS THAT BECOME

    APPARENT ABOUT HADES?

    Hades hell equates with Sheol hell. (Acts 2:27 I Cor.15:55)

    Like Sheol, Hades is located in a downward direction. Matt.11:23

    Hades also is identified as the grave in some passages. Acts 2:26,27

    As was the case with Sheol, Hades and death are used somewhat interchangeably. (I Cor.15:55)

    There is some very figurative language associated with Hades.

    Hades, for example, is described as having gates. Entire towns and cities are metaphorically depicted as being cast down to Hades. Instead of being exalted or lifted up (i.e. honored), they will be cast down (i.e. suffer shame and utter dishonor); especially towns like Capernaum, where Jesus often preached and honored with and by His presence.

    Hades, like Sheol, is personified.

    Both Hades and death are personified as riders on horseback. (Rev.6:8) These twin riders are destined to be cast into the lake of fire at the last judgment. (Rev.20:14)

    Hades, like Sheol, is not eternal.

    No one will spend eternity in Hades hell.

    Hades is emptied of people before it is discarded. (Rev.20:13, 14)

    The righteous go to Hades; David goes to Hades, but he will not be abandoned there; nor will Christ suffer decay there. (Acts 2:26,27)

    MOST IMPORTANT: Jesus holds the (metaphorical?) keys to unlock Hades gates and release its prisoners. Perhaps Revelation 20:14 is describing Christ's final figurative plaguing of mankind's last enemies - where death and Hades are ultimately and eternally consigned to the lake of fire. Death then will never again have opportunity to ride out with Hades against mankind.

    DO ANY OF THE SCRIPTURES REVIEWED SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT

    HADES IS A PLACE WHERE HUMAN SOULS EXPERIENCE EITHER ETERNAL,

    OR TEMPORARY LITERAL TORMENT?

    CONCLUSION: After reviewing 10 of 11 Hades passages, I think it fair to say that, although there is powerful imagery associated with Hades, none of this imagery distinguishes Hades as a place of eternal or even temporary literal torment.

    So indeed, the usage of Hades in Luke 16 is unique.

    Vander

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    It is true that Jesus viewed the dead as "asleep", he says as much.

    Of course what is the state of one that is "asleep" then?

    Are they "dead to the world"? are they conscious? do they dream? speak even? can they go through horrible experiences?

    Yes to all the above it seems.

    Fact is, taking from the very first mention of the dead in the OT to the last passage sin Revelation, we see a progression of the notion of what it means to be dead, what they sate of being dead is, what life after death is and what life AFTER life after death is.

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