Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Mary
    Mary

    The problem with 'soul sleepers' is that there are several passages in the bible that flatly contradicts the idea that at death, all consciousness is extinguished. And while they have no trouble whatsoever in claiming that the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is only figurative, they do not apply this same logic to the scriptures that refer to death as "sleep". From a physical point of view, yes, someone who has died looks like they're asleep, but according to other passages in both the OT and the NT, I would assert that these are referring to the physical body, not the spiritual body.

    Genesis tells us that at creation that God infused the physical body with the 'breath of life'. It was only at this point that Adam became a live, physical human being. Then there is the example of Elijah raising the widow's son from the dead.

    "And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived" (1 Kings 17:21-22). This passage specifically says that the child's soul "came into him again."

    Then there is the conversation between King Saul and Samuel. We all know the story: King Saul goes undercover to the witch of Endor and asks her to summon up Samuel for him so he can find out what's going to happen to him. Sure enough, the witch was able to bring up Samuel (much to her own surprise. Perhaps her name was Oda Mae Brown?). Witnesses claim that it was really Satan that Saul was conversing with (and they even put quotations around the name "Samuel" in the NWT to try and show that it wasn't really Samuel), but if that were the case, why does the scripture not say that it was a demon? It doesn't and I think the logical conclusion is because it was really Samuel that Saul was talking to.

    Soul Sleep promoters will inevitably use Psalm 6:5, which says, “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks” and Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10, “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you are going”.

    In his book Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament, Vol. 2, R.L. Harris says:

    If this interpretation of sheol is correct [that it means “grave” where the body is placed], its usage does not give us a picture of the state of the dead in gloom, darkness, chaos, or silence, unremembered, unable to praise God, knowing nothing. Such a view verges on unscriptural soul sleep. Rather, this view gives us a picture of a typical Palestinian tomb, dark, dusty, with mingled bones and where "this poor lisping stammering tongue lies silent in the grave." All the souls of men do not go to one place. But all people go to the grave. As to the destiny of the souls of men in the intermediate state, the OT says little. Actually the NT says little too, but what it says is decisive..."(Chicago: The Moody Bible Institute, 1980, 893.)

    Reniabator said: What was Jesus's view of the dead?

    Indeed. What was Jesus' view of the dead? If he truly believed that at death, all consciousness was extinguished, there should be absolutely no indication from either Jesus or his disciples of anything else. Yet there are several scriptures that indicate that Jesus believed that something survived the physical death. What was the last thing he said before he died?

    "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit!" and then "he yielded up his spirit" or as some say "he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46; Mt 27:50).

    Now soul-sleepers will then say "But Jesus didn't go to heaven the day he died as the bible says he was in the grave for 3 days." Yes, his body was in the grave for 3 days, but not his spirit. As he was dying, he told the thief next to him:

    "Verily I say unto you today you will be with me in Paradise." Once again, soul-sleepers will assert that the punctuation should go after the word "today", which is absurd and based on nothing but their own preconceived idea that nothing survives physical death. In no other case when Jesus used the phrase "Verily I say unto you" did he include the word "today" in the phrase as it would be pointless. Would he say "Truly I tell you tomorrow" or "Truly I tell you yesterday"? The point Jesus was making is that he was promising the man that he would be with him in Paradise that very day. If Jesus were referring to a future Paradise on earth (where the man would not even be with Jesus), then how was this man's fate any different than that of the other evildoer who did not show any faith? As far as I know, the WTS does not teach that the other man would not get a resurrection, so if that's the case, this entire conversation between Jesus and the evildoer would be utterly pointless.

    There are other scriptures too that indicate Jesus' followers believed in a life after death as well. When Stephen was dying, Acts 7:59-60 tells us:

    "And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep."

    This passage correlates with Ecclesiastes 12:7 which also describes that the physical body indeed dies, while the spirit goes on: "and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

    The Apostle Paul also clearly shows that he fully expected to be with Jesus after he died:

    "We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Co 5:6-8). "I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account" (Philippians 1:23-24).

    If Paul had believed in soul-sleep, then I truly doubt he would have ever made these statements.

    Another excellent example is the appearance of Moses and Elijah during the Transfiguration. Both Moses and Elijah had shuffled off this mortal coil centuries before yet this passage shows them appearing and conversing with Jesus:

    Luke 9:29-31: And behold, two men were talking with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was about to accomplish at Jerusalem."

    Wow. Either it was really Moses and Elijah that appeared or gee, maybe it was Satan again masquerading as the living again eh?

    All in all, there are countless scriptures that teach that something survives the physical death. Now whether this actually happens or not is another story. My point in posting this is to show that from a biblical point of view, the soul or spirit indeed goes on.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Very interesting, Mary. Thanks.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    One thing though, we need to NOT confuse SOUL with SPIRIT, they are not the same.

    A person BECOMES a SOUL when the SPIRIT is in that person, the soul is NOT Eternal but it CAN be immortal, though immortal does NOT mean it can't be killed.

    Though to be honest, most people do equate Eternal with immortal so there is a bit of a tricky slope there.

    Upon our death, our soul sleeps and our spirit returns to God, our body and soul are ressurected when the spirit returns on the day of ressurection and we shall be, body and soul inclusive, immortal like Jesus.

  • debator
    debator

    Hi mary (btw my name is debator)

    You are offering a mixture of your doctrine and assumptions on wording as a refute and getting very circular in the process. Both the words soul and spirit are used to mean "life" in places. The position that a "floaty bit" of yourself goes off to heaven is not scripturally supported and cannot be offered as prove without scriptural back-up. You cannot say Jesus means more than "sleep" because we know a "floaty bit" is already in heaven.

    For anyone that looks at Jesus's wording and says "today you will be with me in paradise" is what he meant, has to deal with the two problems. If Jesus apparently didn't die and is in heaven and his body is in earth but dead if he then after 3 days is resurrected as a physical body we have two Jesus's! do they just join up and how can the physical Jesus once resurrected goto heaven? When only the souls apparently goto heaven? If we are all alive and happy in a paradise in heaven why the need for a physical resurrection of our rotting earthly bodies?

    I am always suspicious of anyone offering after-life as an option because the bible is very clear that death is death. You end up saying like psacramento that a person is dead "conscious of nothing" yet a floaty part of him is a alive and conscious of everything you are just creating oxymorons.

    Jesus says the dead are asleep he doesn't say that any part of them is alive in paradise. Then also why would he rip a little girl and lazarus away from this paradise just to resurrect them to earth and death again? Then say these especially lazarus's are an example of the resurrection to come.

    By running with a false idea ignoring the obvious simple idea you end up with a huge fictional mound that really starts to contradict the bible.

    The Minute the bible says "the soul can die" this bit of fiction was refuted. It incompatible with a soul which is apparently an immortal bit of ourselves.

    God has never said we couldn't die only Satan offered this as an option.

    The one you quote from saying Sheol is the grave is digging a hole for himself. By accepting Sheol is "grave" rather than "hell" how can he then say Souls goto "different places" he has just shot himself in the foot. According to the bible all those due for resurrection are in Sheol including the soul. It doesn't then talk of getting various souls from different places to join them too. in fact the following scripture prophetic towards Jesus is a real problem.

    Psalm 16:10 (King James Version)

    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    The soul is in hell/grave/sheol not heaven and gets resurrected after 3 days.

    I think it is very weak doctrine that needs to literalise a figurative parable or the "witch of endor" piece which says Samuel "comes up from the ground" not from a floaty heavenly place. A close look at the witch of endor shows a support that a Whole person dies and is resurrected, whether it is seen as a false samuel or the real one.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Reniaa aka "Debator" said:

    I think it is very weak doctrine that needs to literalise a figurative parable or the "witch of endor" piece which says Samuel "comes up from the ground" not from a floaty heavenly place. A close look at the witch of endor shows a support that a Whole person dies and is resurrected, whether it is seen as a false samuel or the real one.

    My reply:

    You think Reniaa? I think that is a weak attempt to dismiss clear verses that contradict WT theology.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Hi mary (btw my name is debator)

    Ya. But we all know that you're really 'Reniaa'. You just came back with a different log-in name. 
    You are offering a mixture of your doctrine and assumptions on wording as a refute and getting very circular in the process.

    I'm doing nothing of the kind. What I did do, is show you evidence from the scriptures that the bible does teach about an afterlife. I also think it's laughable that you accuse me of "getting very circular" when the WTS's teachings (that you so desperately cling to) is the epitome of 'circular reasoning'.

    Both the words soul and spirit are used to mean "life" in places. The position that a "floaty bit" of yourself goes off to heaven is not scripturally supported and cannot be offered as prove without scriptural back-up.

    Well, perhaps you need to go back and re-read my post Reniaa Debator. Because I offered you several passages both in the OT and the NT that supports the idea that something indeed DOES survives the physical death.

    For anyone that looks at Jesus's wording and says "today you will be with me in paradise" is what he meant, has to deal with the two problems. If Jesus apparently didn't die and is in heaven and his body is in earth but dead if he then after 3 days is resurrected as a physical body we have two Jesus's!

    Uh, no you don't (unless you can't count). From my understanding, the resurrection is the unification of the spirit and the physical body as I already pointed out to you. Which part of that don't you understand?

    I think it is very weak doctrine that needs to literalise a figurative parable or the "witch of endor" piece which says Samuel "comes up from the ground" not from a floaty heavenly place. A close look at the witch of endor shows a support that a Whole person dies and is resurrected, whether it is seen as a false samuel or the real one.

    What sort of insane rambling is that? Can you not string two sentences together that actually make sense? Are you truly trying to say that because the bible describes Samuel as coming up from the ground and not 'down from heaven' that that's the basis for it actually being a demon? Well, that shouldn't surprise me, given your posts from the past. Your assertion that it is a "very weak doctrine" is based solely on your preconceived WT idea that nothing survives the physical death and is useless as a rational argument. And I see that you offered no explanation for Paul's desire to 'be at home with the Lord' once he died, nor did you offer any explanation for why Jehovah would purposely try to deceive Jesus' disciples by 'bringing up' Moses and Elijah to appear in the Transfiguration. Like I already said, if 'Samuel' was just dead in the ground and that was a demon inpersonating him, then how is that any different than when the disciples saw Jesus talking with the long-dead Moses or Elijah? If it wasn't really them---if it was just a vision that Jehovah made to appear, then how is what He did any different than when a demon supposedly impersonated Samuel?

    Inquiring minds would like to know.

  • debator
    debator

    Hi mary

    you ignored the scripture from psalms saying Jesus's soul would not be left in "Sheol" but you jump to the witch of endor. lets look at it.

    1 sam 28:11 Then the woman asked, "Whom shall I bring up for you?"
    "Bring up Samuel," he said.

    Bring up?

    1 sam 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"

    but just to make this certain

    1 Samuel 28:13

    13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth."

    She saw a divine being coming out of the EARTH.

    Was samuel confused did he say bring up instead of come down? and why is he old?

    1 sam 28:14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
    "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.

    So was She lying, mistaken? was samuel confused? are people old in heaven?

    The transfiguration is a vision simply because Jesus was not a king yet at that point it is showing a time when he will be. It is a similar vision to John's revelation vision. but if you don't believe me I refer you to Jesus on this.

    (Matthew 17:9) . . .And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. . .

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Wow, contortions worthy of the cirque do soliel !

  • Mary
    Mary

    Dear Reniabator;

    I'm off to a meeting shortly, but I'll reply to your post when I get home tonight.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi PS,

    Wow, contortions worthy of the cirque do soliel !

    I thought Debater's points were fair.

    "All are alive to Him". But doctrinally speaking, whether they sleep or wake during the intermediate state does not affect their ultimate destiny one iota. So what if the wicked get a moments reprieve while they sleep in the dust. They will get their comeuppance (beating with stripes) at their awakening. So what's the rush? The eternal woodshed can wait - no?

    I like the story of John Calvin hoping to save Michael Servetus the pain of execution by fire.... But, what's the big deal about saving him 5 minutes of torture when he believed he was sending Michael off to an eternity of far worse pain? It was nice that He demonstrated some compassion anyway and sought to save him a few minuites of torture before he faced more of the same at death.

    Do you think that God may be as compassionate as Calvin? I think so; at least judging from the paucity of evidence in the entire Bible that suggests all nonbelievers who have died since Adam are being and have been tormented in flames for as much as 6000 years running in some cases.

    Just a thought.

    Vander

    Perhaps it's time to take another look at this unique account and get past the traditions of men who draw

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