Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  PSacramento

  One of the things we see is that itis a warning:

  That the arrogance and dismissive attitude of the rich man cost him dearly and placed him, according to Jesus's own words: "In Hades where he is being tormented".

  Lazarus on the other hand was with Abraham ( at his bosum), which means that he was with THE Patriarch of the Hebrew nation.

  It is amasing that the rich man would beg to have a lick of Lazarus' finger, Lazarus having been a leper ( no need to expand on that).

  Abraham is the one the reams the rich man a new a-hole for being such an ass, which goes back to Jesus' teachings in MATT.25.

  Abraham also mentions a chasm between where the Rich man is and where Abe and Lazarus are, a fixed chasm that can't be crossed by any of them on either side.

  Abe makes it clear that there is nothing that can be done for the rich man OR for his family since, they KNOW what was right and did not do it.

  SO, what do we get from this?

  Know what is right and NOT doing it gets your ass sent to hades :)

  The thing is, according to Jesus, this happens NOT at the final judgement or ressurection, but after death since the family of the rich man are still alive and well.

  There is NOTHING to indicate in this passage or the one before it or after it, that it is "made up" in the sense of the lesson, indeed just before this parable Jesus reams the Pharisees:

  14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all this, and they ridiculed him. 15 So he said to them, “You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of others; but God knows your hearts; for what is prized by human beings is an abomination in the sight of God.

  16 “The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed, and everyone tries to enter it by force. f 17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one stroke of a letter in the law to be dropped.

  18 “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and whoever marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.

  And after it:

  17 Jesus a said to his disciples, “Occasions for stumbling are bound to come, but woe to anyone by whom they come! 2 It would be better for you if a millstone were hung around your neck and you were thrown into the sea than for you to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 Be on your guard! If another disciple b sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. 4 And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive.”

  5 The apostles said to the Lord, “Increase our faith!” 6 The Lord replied, “If you had faith the size of a c mustard seed, you could say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

  7 “Who among you would say to your slave who has just come in from plowing or tending sheep in the field, ‘Come here at once and take your place at the table’? 8 Would you not rather say to him, ‘Prepare supper for me, put on your apron and serve me while I eat and drink; later you may eat and drink’? 9 Do you thank the slave for doing what was commanded? 10 So you also, when you have done all that you were ordered to do, say, ‘We are worthless slaves; we have done only what we ought to have done!’ ”
• 

  james46888

  "I think it is helpful to look at sheol in broader context. You quote two verses which don't mention torment or give us any kind of a picture similar to that found in Luke 16."

  Job 26:5 says that the shades in sheol "tremble" or, as in other versions, "writhe" (maybe you're using a different translation to me), so clearly something unpleasant is in view. Isaiah 14 talks about them becoming weak. The word "rephaim" used there in Isa 14, has, its parallel in Ugaritic texts where, in the opinion of the majority of scholars, it refers to the spirits of the dead.

  "Here is what I have found in my studies concerning Sheol.FACTS THAT BECOME APPARENT ABOUT SHEOl: Sheol is located downward in the dust of the earth. (Job 17:13-16) Both the good and the bad go to Sheol.Jacob and his sons go to Sheol. (Gen.42:38)David planned to rest in Sheol. (Ps.16:9-10)David desired his enemies also go down to Sheol, not in peace, butin blood. (I Kings 2:6,9)By going to Sheol, Job misses God's wrath. Job actually asks to behidden in Sheol to escape God's anger. (Job 14:13) The terms death, the grave, and destruction are so closely bound as to be often interchangeable in the text (Pr.15:11, 24; 27:20)."

  No problem with the above. Job 14:13 was, as you may recall, one of the passages I myself cited in order to show those believers in sheol back then were in a state of non-punishment.

  "Figurative language is often associated with Sheol.Beds are made In Sheol. Maggots are spread beneath the dead and worms cover them like a blanket. (Is.14:11)Sheol is even personified.It is pictured as snatching sinners and robbing people of theirremaining years. (Job 24:19);Sheol has an appetite. It opens its mouth without limit.It is never satisfied. (Pr.27:20) Sheol is naked before God."

  Yes, sheol is personified in Scripture but that does not prove in anyway that it is not a literal place for departed spirits.

  "Not only is Sheol personified, but it is also presented in satire, (while incorporating some of the mythological views of Babylon and Egypt), to ridicule special visitors. Sheol, for example, is said to stir up dead kings, and have them rise from their thrones and welcome Israel's enemies. (Is.14:9,11,15; Ez.32: 21,24,27) These same leaders are also personified for dramatic purposes and pictured as carrying on a conversation in Sheol while still engaged in their lifetime pursuits. i.e. ruling"

  Yes, satire is used but again this does not show it's not a literal picture. Figurative language is used here and there ("thrones" etc) but again this does not prove the whole picture is figurative.

  "MOST IMPORTANT: God will redeem souls from Sheol's power. (Ps.49:15)"

  Agree but fail to see this proves the doctrine of soul-sleep.

  "Sheol will not have the last word. Sheol is going to be plagued and death is going to be destroyed! (Hos.13:14 KJV)"

  Agreed but, again, fail to see it proves your point.

  "Sheol is not eternal therefore, but temporary."

  Agree, I don't know any informed Christian who feels it isn't.
  
  
  "not too much goes on in Sheol.There is no wisdom or knowledge there and no activity or work forthose who go down to silence. (Eccl.9:10 Ps.6:5 Ps. 31:17)No person praises God from Sheol (Ps.6:5; 88:10-12)"
  
  
  You have to take into account the wider context of the book of Ecclesiates. The answer to that generally explains the other passages you cite too. I would go into more detail but in your last response you didn't deal with some of the points I raised about Luke 16 in rebuttal to yourself, so I think it'd be more fair if you did that first.
• 

  Chalam

  Ding What I Believe

  You asked what I believe so I'll tell you.

  No, I don't agree with the Mormons that a person can progress to godhood. I have spent hours talking with Mormons to show them from both the Bible and their Book of Mormon that such an idea is satanic heresy, part of the lie the serpent told to Adam.

  I believe that when a Christian dies, his body dies, but his soul and spirit go to be with Christ in heaven. This is why Paul says he would rather "become absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord." (2 Cor. 5:8, NWT). I would ask you, how can a person "become absent from the body"? According to Watchtower teaching, there is NO separate part of a man that COULD be "absent from the body" and "home with the Lord."

  In Philippians 1:21-24, Paul writes that for him to die is gain! He says would rather release and be with Christ, that that is far better. What part of a man "releases" at death and ends up "with Christ"?

  Moses appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (Luke 9:30). He even talked with Jesus about Jesus' upcoming death. How could this happen? How could Moses carry on a conversation with Jesus if at Moses' death Moses went completely out of existence and won't come to life again until the resurrection of his body, which still hasn't taken place?

  Jesus told the religious leaders they should listen to Moses and the prophets.

  Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob's bodies had been long dead when Moses encounted Jehovah at the burning bush. Yet Jehovah told Moses, "I AM the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob." He didn't say, "I was..." or "I will be..." He said, "I am" their God.

  Jesus said this very statement of Jehovah about his relationship to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob proved that"He is the God, not of the dead, but of the living, for they are all living to them." (Luke 20:38). All living [present tense]. That can't just mean that Jehovah remembers them. We remember a lot of people who have died but by no means can it be said that these people are "all living to us."

  With regard to unbelievers who die, I believe that they are conscious and separated from Jehovah's paradise forever. Knowing their fate is the torment Jesus spoke of in the story of the rich man and Lazarus. He adopted that very teaching of the Pharisees and used it. On the issue of life after death, he sided with the Pharisees against the Sadducees.

  Ezekiel 18

  You mentioned Ezekiel 18. Just as Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20 talk about a soul that sins dying, so Ezekiel 18:27-28 says that a person who turns from his wickedness will "save his soul alive" and "not die." Clearly, this does not mean that a person who turns from wickedness will never physically die. What is this soul that will stay alive and not die?

  Ecclesiastes 9:5

  I don't remember you citing this verse, but I know the Watchtower uses it frequently, so I'll mention it in order to tell you what I believe.

  I think we need to be extremely careful not to take everything that's stated in Ecclesiastes by the king as being Jehovah's revelation of reality. If we did, we'd believe that Jehovah is telling us that everything is meaningless (1:2) and a striving after wind (4:4). Obviously, that's not the correct way to understand this book.

  Let's look all of Ecclesiates 9:5-6. If this passage is Jehovah's revelation that the "dead are conscious of nothing at all," then Jehovah is also telling us that the once a person is dead he has "no more reward [wages]" and "no portion any more to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun." So much for a resurrection to a paradise earth! This cannot be Jehovah's declaration of the effect of death.

  We see nothing about a resurrection in Ecclesiastes. Why not? I believe it's because the book is written from the perspective of a man who is only looking at this life, at life "under the sun," a phrase he uses 29 times in the book. The book is a wisdom book which shows us the utter bankruptcy of the humanistic view that this life is all there is and that when we die it is all over.

  Great post!

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  theMadJW

  Hey- go ahead and ignore Jesus' teachings- and the rest of the scriptures, if you wish to be a good. little churchoid.

  Adam & Eve only died a 'spritual' and 'physical' death, their immortal souls are in Heaven right now- being rewarded for their treason! All rich people are doomed to go the hellfire for being rich.

  Simple!

  HOO-HA!
• 

  theMadJW

  Bravo, Vander! WONDERFUL info! What source did you get it from?

  To you others- WHEN wil you LISTEN to God & Christ? Death MEANS death-, not immortality in another form. There WILL be a resurrection, and all will get OUT of Hell!

  ASK me if you want the scriptures on that...
• 

  Chalam

  ASK me if you want the scriptures on that...

  Thanks for offering but I have them right here.

  Revelation 20:13-15 (New International Version)

  13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  Blessings,

  Stephen
• 

  theMadJW

  Agape, Chalam!
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi MadJW,

  What source did you get it from?

  From a 66 page study I did a while back entitled: Eternal Torment:Image and Reality.

  The segment on "The Rich Man and Lazarus" was co-written by Larry Urbaniak.

  Unlike your organization, I believe Jesus' audience understood these kind of stories literally.

  But I see this account as a corrective to Pharisiac teachings. The Pharisees were constantly threatening the common people with horrid torments in the afterlife if they did not abide by their teachings (as is characteristic of high control groups). And they used these stories as well to justify not lifting a finger to help the poor and destitute.

  The question is: How did they use these stories to justify themselves before men and still look holy while totally ignoring the needs of the oppressed?

  When this is answered, we can see why Jesus imitated their story line.

  Vander
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  Hi Stephen,

  13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.>>

  Revelation is a book of symbols...some of which are defined for us. Notice in verse 14, the symbolic lake of fire is defined for us as the second death...in the same fashion as the symbolic dragon is defined for us as the devil a few verses earlier.

  Verse 14 then is a symbolic way of expressing that death and Hades will be utterly destroyed or eradicated? It obviously requires de-imaging or decoding of symbols since it cannot be a literal description of what will happen to death and Hades?

  - Will death literally be picked up and tossed?

  - Will death be flung into a literal lake?

  Since these ideas are literally impossible, the "casting" and "the lake of fire" in Rev.20:14 are really images, aren't they? They can be captured by our imaginations, but can anyone say they have any resemblance to what literally will happen to death and Hades?

  Vander
• 

  strypes

  Has anyone thought to just read the passage in luke 16 at face value? Why is it folks want to make it so complecated?

  The Rich Man and Lazarus

  19 “There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried, 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24 And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers —so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”