Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Every one has a "fair Point", that doesn't make the point right, just fair.

    You can try to twist the story of Saul visiting the "witch" as much as you want by taking parts here and there out of context and putting whatever spin on them you like, it doesn't change the story one bit:

    Saul and the Spirit Medium

    1 Now it came about in those days that a the Philistines gathered their armed camps for war , to fight against Israel . And Achish said to David , “ Know assuredly that you will go out with me in the camp , you and your men .”

    2 David said to Achish, “Very well, you shall know what your servant can do.” So Achish said to David, “Very well, I will make you 1 my bodyguard a for life.”

    3 Now a Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him and buried him b in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had removed from the land those who c were mediums and spiritists.

    4 So the Philistines gathered together and came and camped a in Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel together and they camped in b Gilboa.

    5 When Saul saw the camp of the Philistines, he was afraid and his heart trembled greatly.

    6 a When Saul inquired of the Lord , b the Lord did not answer him, either by c dreams or by d Urim or by prophets.

    7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, a there is a woman who is a medium at b En-dor.”

    8 Then Saul a disguised himself by putting on other clothes, and went, he and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night; and he said, “ b Conjure up for me, please, and c bring up for me whom I shall 1 name to you.”

    9 But the woman said to him, “Behold, you know a what Saul has done, how he has cut off those who are mediums and spiritists from the land. Why are you then laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?”

    10 Saul vowed to her by the Lord , saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”

    11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

    12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul.”

    13 The king said to her, “Do not be afraid; but what do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a 1 divine being coming up out of the earth.”

    14 He said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and a he is wrapped with a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and b he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

    15 Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” And Saul answered, “I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and a God has departed from me and b no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do.”

    16 Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the Lord has departed from you and has become your adversary?

    17 “The Lord has done 1 accordingly a as He spoke through me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, to David.

    18 “As a you did not 1 obey the Lord and did not execute His fierce wrath on Amalek, so the Lord has done this thing to you this day.

    19 “Moreover the Lord will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow a you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the Lord will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

    20 Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the words of Samuel; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no 1 food all day and all night.

    21 The woman came to Saul and saw that he was terrified, and said to him, “Behold, your maidservant has 1 obeyed you, and a I have 2 taken my life in my hand and have listened to your words which you spoke to me.

    22 “So now also, please listen to the voice of your maidservant, and let me set a piece of bread before you that you may eat and have strength when you go on your way.”

    23 But he refused and said, “ a I will not eat.” b However, his servants together with the woman urged him, and he listened to 1 them. So he arose from the ground and sat on c the bed.

    24 The woman had a a fattened calf in the house, and she quickly slaughtered it; and she b took flour, kneaded it and baked unleavened bread from it.

    25 She brought it before Saul and his servants, and they ate. Then they arose and went away that night.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi PS,

    You can try to twist the story of Saul visiting the "witch" as much as you want by taking parts here and there out of context and putting whatever spin on them you like, it doesn't change the story one bit:

    No need to twist; the story is true and historical. Even if evangelical commentators differ as to whether it really was Samuel, I have no problem with the account either way. Temporarily awakening Samuel from sleep is not beyond the realm of God's capability last time I checked.

    Why are souls sleeping in the dust of the earth such a threat to your faith?

    What does it affect if the wicked are punished later than sooner?

    Vander

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    Why are souls sleeping in the dust of the earth such a threat to your faith?

    Since I beleive that is what happens, it is no threat whatsoever: People die, body decomposes, the soul "sleeps" and the spirit returns to God.

    At the time of ressurection, the spirit returns, the body is ressurected and the soul "awakens".

    What does it affect if the wicked are punished later than sooner?

    Being a wicked person myself, like everyone else, I would prefer later ;)

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    "6 aWhen Saul inquired of the Lord , bthe Lord did not answer him, either by cdreams or by dUrim or by prophets."...

    saul snuck into a cave under the cover of darkness to consult with a medium who conjured up spirits(a seance). clearly the one who was speaking(but not seen by saul) AS samuel was not from God because 'heaven" was silent...it was a demon in disguise seen only by the medium.

    love michelle

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Well Michelle, if that was the case, good on you !
    You saw what Saul and the inspired writers of 1 Samuel didn't see or they would have said just that.

    Good on you indeed !

    Just one more example how the bible is NOT innerrant and also an exmaple of how, at least 1 Samuel, was not inspired by God.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear PSacramento...

    well if you want to see it that way...I see it as a teaching example...God wants to show us exactly how deceptive satan and his demons can be...

    love michelle

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi PS,

    Being a wicked person myself, like everyone else, I would prefer later ;)

    Very biblical of you to admit it. :o)

    And while we are on the subject of witchcraft...I remember taking a speed reading course at university when the Holy Spirit got my attention and said to my spirit; "Your teacher is a witch". I looked at her. She was rather motherly and attentive...but nothing like the witches I had stereotyped in my head. I wanted to question her but of course, that would be ridiculous to ask out-of-the-blue. Fortunately I happened to be speed-reading an article on voodoo at the time so I raised my hand. I told the teacher what I was reading and asked if voodoo had anything to do with WITCHCRAFT. She responded that of course it didn't and that she should know because she was in fact a witch. I pointed my finger at her and exclaimed, "I thought you were!" The entire class was nonplussed.

    She immediately asked me if I thought she was a bad person. I told her that the Bible says that there is none good, no not one. "But me as a person", she pressed, " I'm a "white witch"; you don't think I'm bad do you?" I returned with the fact that the Bible says that the heart is desperately wicked and evil above all things, who can know it?" The questioning stopped right there thank goodness, because I had just run out of human depravity proof texts. :)

    People who don't know the Lord, often do not/can't see the gravity of their own condition.

    Vander

  • Mary
    Mary
    you ignored the scripture from psalms saying Jesus's soul would not be left in "Sheol" but you jump to the witch of endor.

    There's no need to ignore the scripture because there's nothing to argue about. If Jesus' soul indeed was in Sheol for 3 days, then I have no problem with that. The difference is that you believe that it's simply referring to his body.

    myelaine said: saul snuck into a cave under the cover of darkness to consult with a medium who conjured up spirits(a seance). clearly the one who was speaking(but not seen by saul) as samuel was not from God because 'heaven" was silent...it was a demon in disguise seen only by the medium.

    Sorry myelaine, but I really think that's a stretch and there's nothing there to indicate that it was a demon. As I already asked: if it were a demon, then why doesn't it say so? Why doesn't it say 'and an evil spirit disguised itself as the prophet Samuel'? It doesn't. The passage clearly identifies the spirit as Samuel. This is the same line of reasoning that JWs use regarding the Star in the East that the 3 Magi saw. Because they refuse to acknowledge that God would work through astrologers, they come to the very strange conclusion that the star was put there by Satan, not Jehovah. Once again, there's really nothing to support such an idea.

    There is another verse in Sirach 46:20 (accepted into the Catholic bible I believe, but not the Protestant bible) that mentions it briefly. While there's no mention of the witch, it clearly states that Samuel prophesied after he had died:

    "And after his death he prophesied, and shewed the king his end, and lifted up his voice from the earth in prophecy, to blot out the wickedness of the people."

    And once again I ask: If we are to believe that Samuel was just dead in the ground and it was really a demon disguising itself as one of God's prophets, then what about what happened at the Transfiguration? If Moses and Elijah were really just dead meat in the ground, who was impersonating them and talking to Jesus? Wouldn't that be a rather bizarre thing for God to do? How do you know it wasn't really a demon impersonating Moses and Elijah?

    The bottom line is: there are many scriptures throughout the bible that strongly supports the idea that part of man continues on after the physical death. No one has been able to explain my questions above, nor the troublesome passages that has the Apostle Paul looking forward to dying so he can "be with the Lord". Like I already said: if the bible truly taught that there was nothing past this life, then there should be no scriptures to indicate that there is. And there is.

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    dear Mary...

    I don't know why it doesn't say that it wasn't a demon but the scripture says that God was no longer speaking to saul in any way and NOT by His prophets and then the "spirit" said that the Lord spoke to him and then he proceeded to pass on information. saul had turned from God and then to make matters worse he turned to one who consults spirits...it doesn't even make sense to me that God would "provide" samuel to speak to saul after physical death when saul didn't heed samuel when he was alive......there's a NT scripture in there...

    this instance isn't a particularily good one to be using for your comments because it is stated that saul couldn't even see who it was...he asked the medium what the person looked like and then when he was told what the spirit looked like ...then he perceived it was saul...it just isn't the same case with Jesus on the mt of transfiguration...first these ones (moses and elijah)were talking with Jesus and second the apostles could see them as well.

    love michelle

  • debator
    debator

    Hi Mary

    you must have missed my point from above on the transfiguration.

    The transfiguration is a vision simply because Jesus was not a king yet at that point it is showing a time when he will be. It is a similar vision to John's revelation vision. but if you don't believe me I refer you to Jesus on this.

    (Matthew 17:9) . . .And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying: “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of man is raised up from the dead. . .

    If Jesus himself calls it a vision why are you saying otherwise?

    hi Psacramento

    You cannot have it all ways if you are now saying you believe in they are asleep in death then recognised the bible says nothing about the soul being a floaty bit that goes up while the body goes in the grave.

    Psalm 16:10 (King James Version)

    10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    The Bible is clear it is the soul that is in Sheol/hell/grave.

    Mary You keep saying it is the the body in sheol but this scripture is saying Soul not body.

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