The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest 404 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  notverylikely

  May I refer you to the 15 th post on Page 8 of this thread, which reads:

  Shelby: Which is another reason why we shouldn't put our faith in the Bible... because we don't always see what even IT states.

  Yes, and then you used the bible in another thread. And on this very thread on page 10 said the ball was thrown at Israel via the Law Coenenant. Tsk tsk.

  May I refer you to practically every comment I made on Page 8.

  You may. Quotes like "You do NOT have to take my word for it, though, as the Bible also sets forth what in it IS scripture (though, I must admit that I often ponder why folks like you continually point to the Bible en totale as being inspired and entirely truthful, yet you won't even take into account what IT says on this particular matter"

  And...

  But since you may not grasp that, he has directed me to ask you: IF the letter to the Romans was "scripture," why was it not written to ALL of the Body, and NOT just those "in Rome"? And IF the FIRST letter to the Corinthan congregation was "scripture," why is it NOT contained in the Bible canon, so that it is the SECOND letter that is called the "First"?

  There you go, someone used scripture and you said it wasn't valid. Or is there some other comment you had in mind where you don't use versions, but rather attempt to wholesale deny the right of a fellow believer in Christ the right to use books of the Bible, during which you claim to be pretty much the same as Paul, so so humble yet telling others what they can and cannot do?

  Kinda like that old WTBTS method of putting "answers" in the WT paragraphs to "help" people believe what THEY want them to believe.

  Perhaps, but since you have yet to show a single example, I would say it more like saying YOU have the truth and telling other people what parts of the Bible really mean and denying the parts of it you don't like. Kinda like when GB members give talks and say something that's nowhere in the bible and saying "This isn't men talking, this is Jehovah and Jesus talking to you."

  My goodness, dear NVL, do you ever stop with the deceit?

  Since you have yet to point to a single example of me being decietful, I would have to say the question is invalid on it's face. See my quotes from you above. You used Scripture to prove which scripture wasn't scripture that she had quoted. That's using it. Just because you don't qote specific veses doesn't mean you didn't use it.

  I know that you have painted yourself into a corner, but no matter how much you try, attacking ME and calling me a liar, unfortunately, doesn't work when I can quote your own words.

  If you are saying I am a liar, please show it. I readily admit there have been times when I misquoted or misunderstood and I have apologized and gotten clarification on all of those. However, disparaging my character for pointing out what you are saying...poor form, Shelby, poor form.

  I should have been able to show there was no God without using deceit as I did. Why couldn't I do that?" And then you'll knock back another drink... and shiver. Because, it won't bring you much warmth. No more than your deceit will.

  Wow. Have you considered creative writing as a career? You can make up the craziest shit! Oh, and BTW, as per the norm, the onus is not on me to prove god doesn't exists, it's on you since you claim he does.
• 

  notverylikely

  That's how you come across NVL, you have kept battering away in the hope that Shelby will say just what you WANT to hear.

  Or like it sounds like someone that says "God is telling me you sad, questioning him, are a liar, blah blah blah." Oh wait, THAT's Shelby, not me. No one is forcing her into these threads. I don't WANT her to say anything. As I have said before, when people take up undefendable positions and claim it is truth and they have it, it often seems like battering and caustic when they get questions they can't answer and the people asking are just as persistent as the person hearing voices in their head.

  Does this come under Guideline 1. Threatening language.

  Basically you're saying you are going to stalk her. Just asking, just interested.

  God, I LOVE it when people say "So what you are saying is....". It show the absolute condition of "I just heard what I wanted to hear. Kudos to you!

  So, a quick tutorial on the forum....I am on a lot of threads. So is Shelby. She said she would restrict her use of scripture to a very small part. I think it's bull shit to deny others scripture to use when debating her. If I come across her doing that in a thread, I will call her out on it. If you don't want someone to call out self righteous bullshit, don't post it.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I just wanted to say thanks to NVL. But also, from responses on various threads, I think many JWN posters get it.

  I won't avoid AGuest threads, as I will point out BS when I see the need or have the desire, but since I have seen that others get it, I will cut back and let AGuest reveal the BS for me simply by posting it.
• 

  tec

  Morning, NVL.

  I've stayed out of this and other threads where you and another are heading off - well, because I know what its like to debate with you. I'm going to point one thing out here as an example of what I mean later:

  She said she would restrict her use of scripture to a very small part.

  This is what you heard her say. This is not what she said. She said her Lord directed her to show you that this particular scripture is good. Not that its the ONLY scripture that's good.

  Same as when she said she wasn't going to use scripture - she meant WITH YOU. Not with someone else who might need to SEE it.

  Moving on... I don't think you're being malicious in misquoting or misunderstanding... not in the least. But I know that I used to think (when we first debated) that you would take only part of something I said and use that to make your case, or to change the focus of the debate - even though it was twisting my words.

  Something you said to Zannadoll made me realize this is not what you're doing. I'm paraphrasing so forgive me: But when she accused you of twisting her words and leaving the pertinent parts out, you said you're just quoting the short version of what she said, summing up the basic meaning of what she was saying.

  But I would ask you to consider, that whenever someone accuses you of twisting their words, that it isn't because they're backed into a corner (maybe sometimes, but certainly not everytime), that it is because what you summed up is not what they meant. So in effect, and from their point of view, you're twisting words - while from your point of view, that's what you understood from their words. But as shown in the examples above, you are often misunderstanding.

  I'm only posting to show what I've observed, my friend. I'm not attacking or accusing.

  Peace to you both,

  Tammy
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  Typed debates on an internet forum are much different than verbal debates and much different than printed attacks in magazines.

  Tec, taking words out of context in the WT magazine or in debates has the potential for abuse. But on a thread where the original words are clearly available and the one taking the words out of context cannot prevent the original poster from answering, I see very little problem.

  Sure, one could try to twist the words, but the other can explain or show the context again. Everyone can simply look back at the context and intent of the words.
• 

  tec

  Everyone can simply look back at the context and intent of the words.

  I agree, OTWO. But for some reason, it isn't getting done - maybe because emotion is involved, maybe because too much info is being shared back and forth at once, maybe because the people are speaking completely different languages, LOL. But this is why I wanted to post what I had observed. No judgment or anything, just an observation.

  Tammy
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  I agree, OTWO. But for some reason, it isn't getting done -

  Maybe it is being done. Maybe logic is involved. Maybe people agree with the person posting the response. Maybe the original poster was inconsistent or contradictory or changing their mind.

  I can speculate too.
• 

  tec

  Yes, I'm just speculating on the reasons why... but I pointed out two example where NVL misunderstood something that Shelby had said. So it is happening. And there is no point in two people continuing a debate when they're really just debating what they THINK the other person said, rather than what the other person ACTUALLY said.

  Tammy
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  A person posts their thoughts on JWN. IMHO, they want people to understand their thought on the matter. A little back-and-forth helps clarify. In many of these particular back-and-forths on this thread, you see it different than NVL, myself, perhaps others. I don't think the point is just trying to say "I think you said this, but what did you really say?" I think the point is "I think you meant this and I am calling you out on BS, inconsistency, or in NVL's own words, 'spreading igornance, self righteousness, misinterpretation of plain scripture, hubris and fake communion with god.'"

  But yes- After awhile, it is unnecessary to continue debating over words.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  It does appear that the long battle on this thread is approaching an end. Due to my experience in the arena, I know when a fight can never be conclusive, so I bowed out 3 days ago to silently lick my wounds.

  NVL you have put up a brave fight and made many good points.

  AGuest you have provided your usual avalanche of prose. To not add or take away from the bible used to be sacrosanct. We only have a few pages of the words that Jesus is credited with saying. Yet, on this forum you have spewed out enough of your personal views to create several new bibles.

  This has been entertaining but I am left wondering whether such a vocal and complicated personal view of the bible actually does more to make people turn away from the Christian message than listen?

  I am beyond redemption, but if your aim is to convince people that you have a special relationship with Christ Jesus; or that you faith is based on more than guesswork, you may need to re-examine the way in which Jesus is reported to have conducted his ministry.

  Peace to you - a slave of life.