The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

by AGuest 404 Replies latest jw friends

AGuest

If there is something you feel I am not getting, please please please point it out.
You believe the "receiver" must be some physical apparatus designed by man, which uses some kind of technology. Otherwise, it is impossible to hear God speak. I assert to you, that He does speak... through His Word, Christ... who is so much more "advanced" than man can even imagine. Hearing HIM, however, does not take a piece of man-made equipment. We, each of us, came "equipped." If you listen, you will hear how to "adjust" the "receiver" that is inherrant IN you... in ALL living things... so as to hear.
The first thing to do is to plug the "receiver" IN. One does that by using faith (i.e., one KNOWS God and Christ are alive and that they DO speak). Next, one must turn the "receiver" ON. One may have enough faith to know that God and Christ speak... but not to HEAR. In which case, one can ask for one's "ears" to be "excavated"... opened... by THEM (because one doesn't have enough faith to open one's own ears). So that one can hear.
One may have enough faith to turn the "receiver" on... but not enough to increase the volume. So, one can ask for MORE faith... where one NEEDS more faith. To hear.
If one only... condescended... to even consider the possibility... one would not need to have me or ANYONE tell them ANYTHING about these things: scriptures, the Bible, God, Christ, creation, whathaveyou. One would hear for oneself.
What I find curious is, IF there is NO God... what does one have to LOSE by so condescending? If there are no "spirit" beings... what is there to FEAR? I will tell you: one is not entirely sure that there is no God... or "other" spirit beings... and so fears being "misled" again. But I personally cannot see how, if one is SO sure that is not God... that only the physical world exists... what one believes one can be misled BY? If one's mind is SO strong that nothing but logic WILL prevail... then there is NOTHING, is there... that can ever persuade one otherwise? ?
It is you, dear NVL... who lives in fear. Not me. IF I truly believed there was NO God... or any spirit beings... that "logic" and "reason" (as the physical world knows them) are the "true" gods... and thus there NO consequences for me giving someone the benefit, indeed, there CANNOT be... then I would try what they say should occur. I mean, I already "know" that "nothing" will happen, right? But how can I chide and deride someone and something that I believe flies in the face of "science"... yet, I am the one NOT willing to put it to the test?
That is why I responded as I did to your perception of "falsifiability." You have already drawn your conclusion... fully and completely... without ever even bothering to run a test. Because no one has ever said to YOU, NVL... that it is possible for YOU. You have only hear "stories"... and because they ARE stories and so unproven... you reject the entire premise. Not very "scientific,' IMHO.
I bid you peace... and I, too, am done, here.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
P.S. Think "dog whistle," dear NVL... but 'oh so much more advanced'... as is the hearing that such a "whistle" calls to. Peace.
notverylikely

It is you, dear NVL... who lives in fear.
I am it in fear of any particular thing, my dear. And peace to you. Try again :)
what is there to FEAR?
Nothing....
That is why I responded as I did to your perception of "falsifiability." You have already drawn your conclusion
What do you think falsifiability means? It's clear you miss what it means since it means you CANNOT draw conclusions, but rather must test and provide conditions, test criteria, evidence, etc.
without ever even bothering to run a test
I will happily run one. Give me a hyothesis, conditions, observations, criteria and expected results and I will absolutely run a rest. I promise.
and because they ARE stories and so unproven... you reject the entire premise. Not very "scientific,' IMHO.
See above. Stories are unscientific. Give me above and we can easily prove you true.
Think "dog whistle," dear NVL... but 'oh so much more advanced'... as is the hearing that such a "whistle" calls to. Peace.
Oh, like a really high pitched dog whistle that only certain dogs can hear, but they can't agree on exactly what the noise is? Perfect analogy!
AGuest

Okay, guess we're not quite finished, dear NVL (peace to you!)
I am it in fear of any particular thing, my dear. And peace to you. Try again :)
I assume you mean you're not in fear... but I don't believe that that is accurate.
Nothing....
That's what I believe. I am not sure it's what YOU and some others here believe...
What do you think falsifiability means?
Sigh. It means that IF a thing/theory is false, that falsehood can be proven.
It's clear you miss what it means since it means you CANNOT draw conclusions, but rather must test and provide conditions, test criteria, evidence, etc.
And it's clear that YOU miss as well. I tested out the Most Holy One of Israel, just as He invited me to. The conditions were (1) being in body or (2) being in spirit (optional), (3) utilizing faith and holy spirit. The criteria was that the test must be done by me, alone, under the conditions set forth. The evidence was that I heard. The underlying theory was that with the right "conditions" (being in body or spirit and using faith and holy spirit, one could hear the voice of God, through Christ, and as a result be led into all truth.
I will happily run one. Give me a hypothesis, conditions, observations, criteria and expected results and I will absolutely run a rest. I promise.
Hypothesis: Through faith, one CAN hear the voice of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, through hearing the voice of His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, while still in the body...
Conditions: Having and using faith [and, if granted, holy spirit], while in body or or in spirit
Observations: A voice or voices
Criteria: Must have faith at least the size of a mustard seed and sufficiently exercise that faith
Expected Results: You will hear... and perhaps learn the things that are currently unknown, misunderstood, misleading, inaccurate, unproven, or unprovable by what is available in this world
Stories are unscientific.
Exactly. But until now that's all you had.
Give me above and we can easily prove you true.
See above, please.
Oh, like a really high pitched dog whistle that only certain dogs can hear, but they can't agree on exactly what the noise is? Perfect analogy!
Yes! But that THEY don't agree on WHAT the noise IS... or MEANS... or who it came from... doesn't mean there was no noise, dear one.
As always, I bid you peace... and ears to hear... when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU (which they ARE saying, but you just can't hear them, yet :)...)
"Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Oh, P.S. - The word of my Lord to you is that if you don't HAVE enough faith... or holy spirit... you might need to come to him FIRST, to get some... so that you can run your "test." Peace to you!
journey-on

AGuest...I enjoy your explanations immensely. Would you say that just as an electrical circuit requires positive and negative poles, that a balance of giving and receiving energies are necessry to create a complete spiritual circuitry?
AGuest

Would you say that just as an electrical circuit requires positive and negative poles, that a balance of giving and receiving energies are necessry to create a complete spiritual circuitry?
I absolutely would, dear Journey (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!). For example, the more we speak to HIM, the more we hear him speak to US. It is upon us to draw close... and they, in turn, draw closer. You task a step, they take 2-3. You get back at least what you put out there... and more. For example, if you're loyal, they're loyal. If you're faithful, then they are faithful toward you. To the extent YOU forgive men their trespasses against YOU... to that extent YOUR trespasses... against God AND man... will be forgiven YOU.
Now, some might ask (of course): "Why do WE need to take the first step?"... which, of course, is absurd. The FIRST step... was taken by God... toward US... when He GAVE His Son. So that THROUGH that One we might DO this (hear/see Him). That Son took HIS first step... toward US... when he gave that life.
Now, we can sit on our laurels (or the church bench, as in the case of Mr. Hughes)... and require them to come to us even further... but it isn't going to happen that way. Because the "ball" is now in OUR "court"... and the game will only CONTINUE... if WE get up and play.
It was thrown at us. Some of us (few) caught it... and got up to play. Others caught it, but are still sitting on the bench. Some caught it... and then, sitting there, just threw it back; they never GOT UP to play. Others still just let the ball bounce right on past them.
The "ball" was thrown at Israel by means of the Law Covenant, through Moses. It has been thrown at the world... Israel and EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people... by means of the NEW Covenant, through Christ.
I bid you peace, dear JO... you and your entire household.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
notverylikely

I assume you mean you're not in fear... but I don't believe that that is accurate.
That's what I believe. I am not sure it's what YOU and some others here believe...
What you belive about my fears is irrelevant in this case. Reality and I tell you otherwise. I cannot speak for others, but now you CAN be certain since I am telling you now I am not living in fear.
Sigh. It means that IF a thing/theory is false, that falsehood can be proven.
Nope.
Hypothesis: Through faith, one CAN hear the voice of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, through hearing the voice of His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, while still in the body...
Oh, sorry. That's not a valid hypothesis. That's more of a premise for demonstration. If you would like to demonstrate this for us, give instructions so that we can repeat and confirm it, please do so.
Although via PM you did decline my demonstration since the lord didn't think is worth his time to prove himself by telling what color shirt I was wearing. And every time you have claimed that the Lord has revealed something to you about it, it has been wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME. A 100% failure rate might make want to re-think the demonstrations.
Exactly. But until now that's all you had.
Nope again. Science helps to have more than old stories for explanations.
Yes! But that THEY don't agree on WHAT the noise IS... or MEANS... or who it came from... doesn't mean there was no noise, dear one.
Exactly! If in fact god is really talking, he is the equivalent of a unintelligble dog whistle
AGuest

What you belive about my fears is irrelevant in this case.
What I believe is irrelevant in ALL cases, dear NVL (peace to you!)... including, yes, this one.
Reality and I tell you otherwise.
YOU tell me otherwise, yes. Reality not so much.
I cannot speak for others, but now you CAN be certain since I am telling you now I am not living in fear.
Understood. Disagreed, but understood.
... IF a thing/theory is false, that falsehood can be proven. Nope.
Hmmmm...
"Falsifiability ... the logical possibility that an assertion could be shown false by a particular observation or physical experiment. That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, it means that if the statement were false, then its falsehood could be demonstrated."
Meaning, it's truth... or falsity... can be tested. Demonstrated. Proven. Sounds to me like that's what I stated. But, of course, as we discussed previously, you do have a knack for thinking that a word means only one thing and totally disregarding other definitions. What, say you, is the definition?
Oh, sorry. That's not a valid hypothesis.
What, because you don't believe it's "observable"? Who does it have to be observable by/to, other than you? And anyone can test it out themselves, too, and observe the same thing.
That's more of a premise for demonstration.
Alrighty, then, dear NVL... as you say...
If you would like to demonstrate this for us, give instructions so that we can repeat and confirm it, please do so.
See my previous post. Complete instructions set forth so that you can repeat and confirm (however, don't forget the vital information contained in the post script).
Although via PM you did decline my demonstration since the lord didn't think is worth his time to prove himself by telling what color shirt I was wearing.
Shall we most the contents of those PMs? I mean, I have absolutely NO problem sharing here what I shared with you there...
And every time you have claimed that the Lord has revealed something to you about it, it has been wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME. A 100% failure rate might make want to re-think the demonstrations.
Really? So your asking for additional information (i.e., date and time) was for the purpose of? C'mon, NVL... stop this. You're posturing and that's not fair to these good people...
Science helps to have more than old stories for explanations.
And all you say you have, thus far, is old stories. But I gave you the means for testing. And now... you're stalling. Finding more excuses not to "test." Why IS that, exactly? WHAT are YOU afraid of?? If nothing CAN happen, nothing WILL happen. Right?
Exactly! If in fact god is really talking, he is the equivalent of a unintelligble dog whistle
To the unintelligent dogs, perhaps. Which not all of them are. Some hear the tones and know EAXCTLY what they mean... and who they're coming from. Why is that? Because THEY know the One blowing the tones - they were trained BY him. To HEAR such tones and know what they variations mean.
You're stalling, dear NVL. You know it, I know it, God and Christ know it, the angels know it... and some here know it. C'mon. Move your can. Get to it. Put it to the test.
In the meantime, while you're pondering over it and examining WHY you're "afraid" to do so (because there really is no other reason, is there, other than your fear that I might be right?)... I wish you peace!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
StoneWall

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...
EXACTLY.....The issue isn't that God wants us to suffer
The ISSUE is that God supposedly has all this power(Omnipotent) and all this Knowledge(Omniscient) and still hasn't stepped in to end all this suffering. Yet he will take time out of his busy schedule to talk to just a few people on earth either with a vision, a whisper,a dream, a prophecy, etc. in the same amount of time it would have taken him to talk to everyone around the world at one time. Talk about inefficiency.
What if God was held to the same standards we are suppose to adhere to?
Such as James 2:15-17 [NWT]
"If a brother or a sister is in a naked state and lacking the food sufficient for the day, yet a certain one of YOU says to them: “Go in peace, keep warm and well fed,” but YOU do not give them the necessities for [their] body, of what benefit is it? Thus, too, faith, if it does not have works, is dead in itself.
So God can feed and cloth every single person on this mudball planet, and it should be well within his power and yet he chooses to not do so at this time. I wonder how far we would get if we tried that same reasoning for not helping someone such as ...well you know the time just wasn't right for me to step in so they had to starve to death. But I woulda helped them next week on my schedule if they coulda just hung on a bit longer.
Edited to add this Scripture also:
1 John 3:17,18[NWT] But whoever has this world’s means for supporting life and beholds his brother having need and yet shuts the door of his tender compassions upon him, in what way does the love of God remain in him? Little children, let us love, neither in word nor with the tongue, but in deed and truth"
So thats how I view it right now. I don't want to hear about God's Love(mere words), I want to see it in action....like feed the starving in Africa..heck even here in the U.S.A. or keep the ones safe that get hit by a Earthquake,Tornado,etc..
But I know how it usually goes...someone going to say oh but this is God's way of allowing us to help all those in need and be like him. what if we don't make it in time. I think God should step in on those occasions and keep people from dying..Just my 2 cents worth..
notverylikely

Understood. Disagreed, but understood.
Well, since you know so much, what, my dear, do you think I am afraid of? What do you think reality tells you?
Meaning, it's truth... or falsity... can be tested. Demonstrated. Proven. Sounds to me like that's what I stated.
It what you stated. But what you stated is incomplete. In order to even formulate a valid hypothesis it must be falsifiable. Things that are falsifiable and tested can be proven true. Something that proves true MUST be falsifiable.
What, because you don't believe it's "observable"?
No, because what you wrote is not a hypothesis. Just like you did with falsifiability, jump over to wikipedia and get some links and learn how what one is and how to write it.
Complete instructions set forth so that you can repeat and confirm (however, don't forget the vital information contained in the post script).
Ah, no. Those were not complete instructions. Try again. There was no "step 1, step 2", etc., etc.
Shall we most the contents of those PMs? I mean, I have absolutely NO problem sharing here what I shared with you there...
Sure. You wrote:
My Lord has not told me what color shirt you are wearing; however, he has directed me to tell you NOW what he revealed to me about you when I stated so earlier. Then, he said that you were "not a man 'living' in truth but in deceit," and more specifically that you were "hiding what [you] truly were [doing] from your own flesh (your wife... and children)... and thus, you were acting against your own flesh (you).

So, I was totally caught off guard when you stated on the board that you had finally revealed what you were up to to your wife (and planned to do so for your children). Thus, when others started telling you to lie (on your wife and to the WT elders and your kids), I knew I had to speak up because you would have gone from bad... to worse. You would not only have committed adultery, but have borne false witness against your own flesh (yourself) and bone (your wife). Because at the time, you were still "one." Even if she is a WTBTS stepford wife, your bearing false witness against her would have added injury to the insult and made YOUR error twice as bad.
But my Lord directed me to share it this night because apparently you want to know what I "know."
See, by the time you wrote this, I had already made my issues public, so that doesn't show any insight. You said I would have borne false witness against myself, but I guess God didn't see fit to tell you I had been doing that for years. Apparently he also wasn't able to decided not to bother with a simple question, what shirt I was wearing. So, you only had things revealed to you that I had already made public and even at that, you got it wrong.
Really? So your asking for additional information (i.e., date and time) was for the purpose of? C'mon, NVL... stop this. You're posturing and that's not fair to these good people...
Posturing? You're the one claiming you get insight from god and have many times revealed what you received about me. It's not MY fault you get it wrong every time. I do not understand how it's not fair. No one HAS to read this and for those that do, I think it's important to know how accurate the revealed information you get is.
And all you say you have, thus far, is old stories. But I gave you the means for testing. And now... you're stalling.
Well, for you to give me a testable hypothesis you will need to define "faith", tell where to get it, where the voice is heard, what it sounds like so we know for sure is your God, provide some falsifiability, provide some means of independent verification of the voice, define how intangible faith measurements correlate to the size of a mustard seed either by size or by volume, does the relative density of the faith need to be the same and provide some means of testing the expected result of knowing something currently unknown or unprovable.
That would be a good start. It's not stalling, my dear, when you do not provide what you are asked for. Write that up, send it over and I get to testing.
To the unintelligent dogs, perhaps. Which not all of them are. Some hear the tones and know EAXCTLY what they mean... and who they're coming from.
Since everything you said you heard about me has been 100% wrong or something already known and thus not "unknowable" (using your criteria), I guess we know which side you fall on.
AGuest

Yet he will take time out of his busy schedule to talk to just a few people on earth either with a vision, a whisper,a dream, a prophecy, etc. in the same amount of time it would have taken him to talk to everyone around the world at one time. Talk about inefficiency.
But I know how it usually goes...someone going to say oh but this is God's way of allowing us to help all those in need and be like him.
Please see the New Covenant, dear Stonewall. And peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA

The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...

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