tec: why the heck would an atheist blame a God he per definition dont believe in?
Do you blame Odin or Ra for the state of the world?
The Issue is Not that God WANTS Us to Suffer...
by AGuest 404 Replies latest jw friends
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snowbird
I was thinking of being a sinner when I said there are no innocents.
I agree that babies are innocent of wrongdoing, yet they, too, are sinners.
Syl
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notverylikely
NVL, are you sure you're reading the Bible???
Can you show me where Revelation 21 and 22 says any of that? I mean says it, not says something that you want to interpret as saying that. And I like the classic avoidance technique. Rather that prove what you say is true, just call into question the person asking the question!
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snowbird
What else can we go on, Bohm?
Syl
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notverylikely
I agree that babies are innocent of wrongdoing, yet they, too, are sinners.
What sin have they committed?
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snowbird
Revelation 21 (The Message)
Revelation 21
Everything New
1 I saw Heaven and earth new-created. Gone the first Heaven, gone the first earth, gone the sea. 2 I saw Holy Jerusalem, new-created, descending resplendent out of Heaven, as ready for God as a bride for her husband. 3-5 I heard a voice thunder from the Throne: "Look! Look! God has moved into the neighborhood, making his home with men and women! They're his people, he's their God. He'll wipe every tear from their eyes. Death is gone for good—tears gone, crying gone, pain gone—all the first order of things gone." The Enthroned continued, "Look! I'm making everything new. Write it all down—each word dependable and accurate."
6-8 Then he said, "It's happened. I'm A to Z. I'm the Beginning, I'm the Conclusion. From Water-of-Life Well I give freely to the thirsty. Conquerors inherit all this. I'll be God to them, they'll be sons and daughters to me. But for the rest—the feckless and faithless, degenerates and murderers, sex peddlers and sorcerers, idolaters and all liars—for them it's Lake Fire and Brimstone. Second death!"
The City of Light
9-12 One of the Seven Angels who had carried the bowls filled with the seven final disasters spoke to me: "Come here. I'll show you the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb." He took me away in the Spirit to an enormous, high mountain and showed me Holy Jerusalem descending out of Heaven from God, resplendent in the bright glory of God.
12-14 The City shimmered like a precious gem, light-filled, pulsing light. She had a wall majestic and high with twelve gates. At each gate stood an Angel, and on the gates were inscribed the names of the Twelve Tribes of the sons of Israel: three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, three gates on the west. The wall was set on twelve foundations, the names of the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb inscribed on them.
15-21 The Angel speaking with me had a gold measuring stick to measure the City, its gates, and its wall. The City was laid out in a perfect square. He measured the City with the measuring stick: twelve thousand stadia, its length, width, and height all equal. Using the standard measure, the Angel measured the thickness of its wall: 144 cubits. The wall was jasper, the color of Glory, and the City was pure gold, translucent as glass. The foundations of the City walls were garnished with every precious gem imaginable: the first foundation jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst. The twelve gates were twelve pearls, each gate a single pearl.
21-27 The main street of the City was pure gold, translucent as glass. But there was no sign of a Temple, for the Lord God—the Sovereign-Strong—and the Lamb are the Temple. The City doesn't need sun or moon for light. God's Glory is its light, the Lamb its lamp! The nations will walk in its light and earth's kings bring in their splendor. Its gates will never be shut by day, and there won't be any night. They'll bring the glory and honor of the nations into the City. Nothing dirty or defiled will get into the City, and no one who defiles or deceives. Only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life will get in.
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tec
Syl - I believe we're born into a world of knowing good/evil and we're subjected to both and capable of both... but I don't really believe in this original sin thing. Each man will be judged on what he does and not on what his father does or did... I know you'll know the scripture to back that up :)
Bohm - there are a lot of self-professed atheists or agnostics who seem to have a lot of anger toward God. Someone who does not believe in God cannot blame him - so either they believe in Him deep down, or they're blaming those who taught and/or do believe in him.
Tammy
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bohm
snowbird: Well, thats all, really.
The thing is, that if i look at the lists, i see a picture of a complicated personality. On one hand, he made the world - really a great move from my perspective - but on the other hand, he dont really seem to care about human suffering.
The most likely explanation assuming there is a God is that he made the universe without us on his mind. Perhaps he like Galaxies? Perhaps he made the universe for the sake of the 8-eyed hypnotoads on planet Bezop -- all seem more likely explanations to me than a slightly crazy guy who care immensely for all humans, yet sit on his hand in the face of suffering.
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snowbird
Revelation 22 (The Message)
Revelation 22
1-5 Then the Angel showed me Water-of-Life River, crystal bright. It flowed from the Throne of God and the Lamb, right down the middle of the street. The Tree of Life was planted on each side of the River, producing twelve kinds of fruit, a ripe fruit each month. The leaves of the Tree are for healing the nations. Never again will anything be cursed. The Throne of God and of the Lamb is at the center. His servants will offer God service—worshiping, they'll look on his face, their foreheads mirroring God. Never again will there be any night. No one will need lamplight or sunlight. The shining of God, the Master, is all the light anyone needs. And they will rule with him age after age after age.
Don't Put It Away on the Shelf
6-7 The Angel said to me, "These are dependable and accurate words, every one. The God and Master of the spirits of the prophets sent his Angel to show his servants what must take place, and soon. And tell them, 'Yes, I'm on my way!' Blessed be the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
8-9 I, John, saw all these things with my own eyes, heard them with my ears. Immediately when I heard and saw, I fell on my face to worship at the feet of the Angel who laid it all out before me. He objected, "No you don't! I'm a servant just like you and your companions, the prophets, and all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!"
10-11 The Angel continued, "Don't seal the words of the prophecy of this book; don't put it away on the shelf. Time is just about up. Let evildoers do their worst and the dirty-minded go all out in pollution, but let the righteous maintain a straight course and the holy continue on in holiness."
12-13 "Yes, I'm on my way! I'll be there soon! I'm bringing my payroll with me. I'll pay all people in full for their life's work. I'm A to Z, the First and the Final, Beginning and Conclusion.
14-15 "How blessed are those who wash their robes! The Tree of Life is theirs for good, and they'll walk through the gates to the City. But outside for good are the filthy curs: sorcerers, fornicators, murderers, idolaters—all who love and live lies.
16 "I, Jesus, sent my Angel to testify to these things for the churches. I'm the Root and Branch of David, the Bright Morning Star."
17 "Come!" say the Spirit and the Bride.
Whoever hears, echo, "Come!"
Is anyone thirsty? Come!
All who will, come and drink,
Drink freely of the Water of Life!18-19 I give fair warning to all who hear the words of the prophecy of this book: If you add to the words of this prophecy, God will add to your life the disasters written in this book; if you subtract from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will subtract your part from the Tree of Life and the Holy City that are written in this book.
20 He who testifies to all these things says it again: "I'm on my way! I'll be there soon!"
Yes! Come, Master Jesus!
21 The grace of the Master Jesus be with all of you. Oh, Yes!
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bohm
tec - right. Then i would like to point out that so many christians hate Jesus very badly, and think he was a murderer and a rapist and dont exist.
I would like to point out for you that someone who believe in jesus is Gods son cant think he is a murderer, rapist and does not exist at the same time.
And i would furthermore point out that they blame us atheists for teaching he dont exist.
Could you please tell this imaginative group to stop?
Alternatively -- how about we both stop talking about oxymorons?