A great crowd in heaven (Revelation Chapter 7 VS 19)

by Joliette 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

brotherdan

I've been going back and forth. My boss is cruising around the office. So I'm going between the videos and actual work.
Yes...I do actual work besides talk on JWN! Shocker!
elderelite

Jolette, also get the kingdom interliner. It is EXACTLY the same words used in rev 7 as in rev 19. read it carefully. the NWT does not differentiate between a or the. both verses just say "A" great crowd... so what makes on people and the other angles?
answer: wishfull thinking
Joliette

Thanks Elderelite.
Chalam

answer: wishfull thinking
That's the polite answer!
Leolaia

When I told my parents that a great crowd is mentioned as being in heaven. I also mentioned to them how paradise isnt mentioned in revelations. My parents said there is a difference between 'The Great Crowd' (the other sheep) and 'A Great Crowd' (angels).
First of all, paradise is mentioned in Revelation: "I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God" (2:7). The "tree of life" is later mentioned in New Jerusalem, as having descended from heaven (22:2, 14, 19). This utilizes the Jewish idea that the Garden of Eden wasn't destroyed in the Flood but preserved in heaven (or there was its archetype in heaven), where after Judgment Day the righteous would dwell in peace. It is also the abode of certain ancient worthies, like Adam who was taken to "third heaven" when he died (Greek Life of Adam and Eve 37:5). It could also be visited in vision, as Paul related in 2 Corinthians. There is a rabbinical tradition about three first-century rabbis who visited paradise in vision, one of which died, one of which became insane, and only one of which was able to survive intact. Here are some references to the idea in Jewish literature:
"And he shall open the gates of Paradise; he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant the saints to eat of the tree of life. The spirit of holiness shall be upon them, and Beliar shall be bound by him" (Testament of Levi 18:10-12).
"And he shall take from Beliar the captives, the souls of the saints; and he shall turn the hearts of the disobedient ones to the Lord, and grant eternal peace to those who call upon him. And the saints shall refresh themselves in Eden; the righteous shall rejoice in New Jerusalem, which shall be eternally for the glorification of God" (Testament of Dan 5:11-12).
"And the men took from there. They brought me up to the third heaven. And they placed me in the midst of Paradise. And that place has an apperance of pleasantness that has never been seen. Every tree was in full flower. Every fruit was ripe, every food was in yield profusely; every fragrance was pleasant. And the four rivers were flowing past with gentle movement, with every kind of garden producing every kind of good food. And the tree of life is in that place, under which the Lord takes a rest when the Lord takes a walk in Paradise. And that tree is indescribable for pleasantness of fragrance" (2 Enoch 8:1-3).
Also the reference to the "great crowd" in ch. 7 is just as much in heaven as the "great crowd" in ch. 19. They are "before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple" (7:15). Those who are also "before the throne" are the seven spirits in 1:5, the seven lamps in 4:5, the sea of glass in 4:6, and "all the angels" a few verses earlier in 7:11. They are also "in his temple" which is explicitly designated as "in heaven" in 11:19, 14:17, 15:5. They have "come out of the great tribulation". This means one thing: they are dead. They were martyred during the tribulation. This innumerable crowd completes the number of martyrs mentioned in 6:9-11: "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God....Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed". These are the dead in heaven (as the "altar" is in the heavenly temple), awaiting the completion of the tribulation. Notice too that they are given a white robe (an angelic garment), just as those of the "great crowd" in heaven in 7:13. These members of the "great crowd" have white robes because they have "made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7:14). This again means that they are martyred, for the martyrs in 12:11 have overcome the Devil "by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives when faced with death". Rutherford actually understood this correctly before he changed the teaching in 1935 and taught as recently as 1934 that the "great multitude" are "destined to die". As for the 144,000 of ch. 7, they are located not in heaven but on earth as they are sealed (7:1-4).
3rd heaven just meant the spiritual heavens to early Christians. There were 3 heavens. The atmospheric heavens, the heavens where the stars resided, and the 3rd heaven which is where God resides.
Actually, there were a variety of views. Very common was the notion that there were four heavens, or seven heavens (see the Testament of Levi 8, 2 Enoch, 3 Baruch, the Ascension of Isaiah). Third heaven is where the Garden of Eden is located (or according to some both paradise and Gehenna), whereas God's throne was commonly viewed as in the highest heaven.
notverylikely

Gotta disagree with you NVL
You may disagree all you like. Sources are AWESOME!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Heaven
The Third Heaven is a spiritual division of the universe within Judeo-Christian cosmology. In some traditions it is considered the abode of God, [1] and in others a lower level of Paradise, commonly one of seven.
The word "heaven" had many meaning, but each was distinct with within it's own meaning, also documented "References to distinct concepts known as "Heaven" (Heb. Shamayim) occur in the very earliest books of the Old Testament. [1] The first use of the word heaven, in Genesis 1:8 and 20 refers to the atmosphere over the earth in which birds fly. The second, mentioned in Genesis 1:14, is the setting for the celestial lights, later identified (Genesis 1:16) as the sun, moon and stars."
I suggest you read the article. There were many used for the word "heaven", but as it related to spirit creatures, there were specific uses within Jewish eschtatology. Both Paul and Jesus were Jews and would have known this well.
Ding

Consider these verses. They can't be squared with the idea of people surviving Jehovah's judgment in the last days if they are still on earth. Heaven is the only place of protection.
Zephaniah 1:2 "I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," declares Jehovah.

Zephaniah 1:3 "I will sweep away both men and animals; I will sweep away the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. The wicked will have only heaps of rubble when I cut off man from the face of the earth," declares Jehovah.

Zephaniah 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of Jehovah's wrath. In the fire of his jealousy the whole world will be consumed, for he will make a
sudden end of all who live in the earth."
The Watchtower isn't consistent on their interpretation of Revelation. As you noted, at one time they say "the great crowd" is people. Then they say "the great crowd" is angels.
Likewise with "before the throne."
Rev. 4:5,6,10: WT says "heaven"
Rev. 7:9: WT says "earth"
Rev. 7:11: WT says ?
Rev. 7:15: WT says ?
Rev. 8:3: WT says "heaven"
Rev. 14:3: WT says "heaven"
Rev. 20:12: Earth? But look at verse 11.
On the other hand, if "great crowd" is people and "before the throne" is heaven, there's no contradiction among them or with the verses from Zephaniah.
You may be surprised to learn that in The Finished Mystery (1918, 1926), the WTS said there are 4 classes, not 2:
-- 144,000 in heaven
-- All other NT believers in heaven
-- Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, etc. on earth
-- All other NT faithul on earth
In other words, the WTS doesn't know. They have contradicted their own teaching with no explanation as to why.
possible-san

Joliette.
The major portion of comments in this thread are called so-called "fundamentalism."
In this forum, a certain person expressed it, saying, such opinions are "fundie crap."
And I am a person who thinks that that "fundamentalism" itself is wrong/incorrect, too.

If you live in the United States, I'd like to recommend you to read the opinions/view/books like the "New Thought churches."
For instance, Joseph Murphy, etc.
http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Murphy/e/B001HCYPOC/ref=ntt_athr_dp_pel_1
Well, in Japan, although most of the Protestant churches are "liberalism" theology, some fundamentalism churches in Japan have said that Christian's final destination/goal is not "Heaven."
http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~remnant/090kurisu.htm
http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~remnant/shumatsu08.htm
And, they say that the "144,000" and the "great crowd" are the same group (all the Christians).
http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~remnant/shumatsu07.htm

http://www.flickr.com/photos/imagenjpg/900655224/
possible
Chalam

Simple, clear, concise, indeed, a picture is worth a thousand words :)
Blessings,
Stephen
pallemar

You can allso use this argument against a paradise earth, becourse, it have walls, and how big is new jerusalem?
rev:21:16 The city is laid out as a square, and its length is as great as the width; and he measured the city with the rod, fifteen hundred miles; its length and width and height are equal.
21:17 And he measured its wall, seventy-two yards, according to human measurements, which are also angelic measurements.
50*100 miles*50*100 milies = 25.000.000 square miles.
how big is earth? It is roughly 197 million square miles. (there is no more water ;)
else it woulde have been 57 million square miles of land and the rest water.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_square_miles_is_planet_Earth
so how mush land does jerusalem take?
(25 M*100%)/197 M = 12,6% of the area of earth, so if you want freedom, you shoulde be a ateist :)

A great crowd in heaven (Revelation Chapter 7 VS 19)

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