A great crowd in heaven (Revelation Chapter 7 VS 19)

by Joliette 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Hi TrueScript.....Actually, I did not presume an identity between the "great multitude" of ch. 7 and ch. 19, but rather said that the multitude in ch. 7 is as much in heaven as the multitude in ch. 19. Now that you raise the issue, there is a close connection between the two groups since both are described as singing a victory song with similar content (e.g. hé sóteria tó theo hémón in 7:10 and hé sóteria kai hé doxa kai hé dunamis tou theou hémón in 19:1). But because these are distinct auditions and visions, I wouldn't cite this by itself as any sort of "proof" pertaining to the group in ch. 7. It just conforms again to the overall picture.

    The temple is confessed to be in heaven on several occasions as you highlight, yet each provide the specifier "in heaven," lacking in Revelation 7. The temple at Revelation 9:1 also lacks this specifier and contextually I doubt you would dispute the location as upon the earth.

    This is really weak. There is no question that the temple in 11:1 (I think this is what you mean since there is no temple in ch. 9) is the temple in Jerusalem because it is in the city trampled by the Gentiles (v. 2), the same city where the Lord was crucified (v. 8). Naturally it lacks the specifier "in heaven" because it isn't in heaven; equally there is no reason to suppose that the heavenly temple must always be qualified as "in heaven". The "temple" from which angels exit in ch. 14 first lacks the modifier (14:15) and then contains the modifer (v. 17), but the modifier does not change the reference to a different temple. Similarly the temple in ch. 16 lacks a modifer "in heaven" but again it is clearly the heavenly temple as the voice from the throne sounds forth from it (16:1, 17). The temple in 7:15 is clearly the heavenly temple because the same group "in the temple" is also "before the throne" (on the throne being in heaven, cf. 4:2-10, 5:11, 12:5, etc.), just like the four lampstands and the sea of glass and other things that are "before the throne". There is just no contextual reason to regard the temple, and the "great multitude" within it, as an earthly temple and an earthly group of people.

    While commented on, you seem to overlook the distinction between the great crowd and the martyrs in Rev. 6. The great crowd has "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb" (7:14) while to each of the martyrs "was given... a white robe" (6:11). The former would refer to the acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice while still living.

    It is an interesting difference, but it doesn't necessarily lead to the interpretation you have given, especially as it sets aside the indications that the heavenly "great multitude" in ch. 7 consist of the Christians martyred in the great tribulation. The tribulation has not yet occurred from the standpoint of the martyrs awaiting justice in ch. 6 who are told to wait until the completion of "the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been" (6:11); these would be killed in the tribulation described in ch. 13-14. And it is with the case of the tribulation saints where their number is emphasized (7:9). The tribulation saints unlike these earlier martyrs wage war against the Beast and the Devil through their martyrdom; they take an agentive role in this war. Thus we read regarding the tribulation: "It [the Beast] was allowed to make war against the saints and conquer them and given power over every race, people, language, and nation .... all who refused to worship the image were killed" (13:7-15). Note the reference to "every race, people, language, and nation," just as it is with the multitude who underwent the great tribulation in 7:9. The martyrdom of the faithful is construed by the author as a victory over the Beast, as the Beast and his followers are "defeated by the called, the chosen, the faithful" (17:13-14), who "have triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the witness of their martyrdom, for even in the face of death they would not cling to life" (12:11). I believe this may well account for the agency that the multitude has in 7:9 in washing their robes, for they took part in a holy war (the great tribulation) against the Beast and the Devil, conquering them through their own deaths (even as they were seemingly conquered by them). The metaphor I believe mixes two OT notions: 1) the persecuted and martyred faithful who are "tested, refined, and made shining white" in Daniel 11:35, 12:3, 10, and 2) the cleaning of soldiers' garments of blood after holy war (cf. Numbers 31:19-24; applied to the final eschatological war in 1QM 14:2-3).

    Anyway, that's my take, thanks for the interesting discussion.

  • cameo-d
    cameo-d

    Is that the Emerald City in the background? Or perhaps DisneyWorld? Are those poppies in the lower right corner of frame?

  • TrueScript
    TrueScript

    Leolaia,

    This is really weak. There is no question that the temple in 11:1 (I think this is what you mean since there is no temple in ch. 9) is the temple in Jerusalem because it is in the city trampled by the Gentiles (v. 2), the same city where the Lord was crucified (v. 8). Naturally it lacks the specifier "in heaven" because it isn't in heaven; equally there is no reason to suppose that the heavenly temple must always be qualified as "in heaven". The "temple" from which angels exit in ch. 14 first lacks the modifier (14:15) and then contains the modifer (v. 17), but the modifier does not change the reference to a different temple. Similarly the temple in ch. 16 lacks a modifer "in heaven" but again it is clearly the heavenly temple as the voice from the throne sounds forth from it (16:1, 17). The temple in 7:15 is clearly the heavenly temple because the same group "in the temple" is also "before the throne" (on the throne being in heaven, cf. 4:2-10, 5:11, 12:5, etc.), just like the four lampstands and the sea of glass and other things that are "before the throne". There is just no contextual reason to regard the temple, and the "great multitude" within it, as an earthly temple and an earthly group of people.

    My argument is not that such specification is necessary for them to be in heaven, only that the specific texts you cite all provide such specification and Revelation 7 lacks it. This does not prove they are not in heaven, but it does open the door for an earthly temple.

    Otherwise, I'll reflect on your other comments for now as you've presented a couple of points I hadn't considered.

    Thanks,

    TS

  • elderelite
    elderelite

    @script, Sorry I wasnt avoiding the topic just caught up watching football. Your last post is really where I am with it. It is open to speculation. The problem is that our org dosent acknowledge the problems with out interpritation, rather it is empahtically stated that rev 7's great crowd is for a fact on the earth and that for a fact the great crowd in chapter 19 is... well not talked about. this great crowd of rev chapter 7 is one of the KEY foundations of our teaching of an earthly restoration. just something to reflect on

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