Great stuff guys! Thank you ;)
A great crowd in heaven (Revelation Chapter 7 VS 19)
by Joliette 33 Replies latest watchtower bible
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PSacramento
Leo is correct, as usual, and if you don't wanna use the parts she quoted that are NOT in the NWT, us the parts she mentions that are in Revelation that shows that John of Patmos saw the great crowd in heaven just as he saw, in the first time he uses the word, the seven spirits of God in chapter 1 and so forth.
Leo is also correct about the views of 3 and even 7 heavens, it was a common jewish belief i n the 1st century, one Paul would have known and, from the looks of it, believed.
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pirata
marked. Great information everyone. The "third heaven" discussion that has come up in a few different threads over the past few days is fascinating.
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BurnTheShips
A great crowd in heaven (Revelation Chapter 7 VS 19)
There will be no separation between Heaven and Earth.
1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
5 He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
BTS
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Ding
I agree with BurnTheShips that the Bible teaches that at the distinction between Heaven and Earth will be done away with because God will dwell with His people on a new earth.
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Chalam
Indeed, the prayer will have been answered in full.
Matthew 6:10 (English Standard Version)
10 Your kingdom come, your will be done, [a] on earth as it is in heaven.
Footnotes:- Matthew 6:10 Or Let your kingdom come, let your will be done
Blessings,
Stephen
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TrueScript
Leolaia,
I have to disagree in your assesment of the great crowd. The great crowd at 19:1 is ambiguous, only a voice from heaven. The leap required to use this as proof of the great crowd's location in Rev. 7 is not convincing. The temple is confessed to be in heaven on several occasions as you highlight, yet each provide the specifier "in heaven," lacking in Revelation 7. The temple at Revelation 9:1 also lacks this specifier and contextually I doubt you would dispute the location as upon the earth.
While commented on, you seem to overlook the distinction between the great crowd and the martyrs in Rev. 6. The great crowd has "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb" (7:14) while to each of the martyrs "was given... a white robe" (6:11). The former would refer to the acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice while still living. Similarly, the martyrs are told to "rest" while the great crowd "serve him day and night" (7:15)
"Before the throne" is an expression generally reserved for heaven, but not excusively (20:12, Targ. Pseudo-Jonathan Ex. 15:17) . They are "before the throne" not because of martyrdom, but because they have made their robes clean with the lamb's blood (7:15).
TS
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elderelite
@true.. lets be honest though.. both occurances we are talking about are in the same bible book. In chapter 7 they are depicted as "before the throne" along with everyone else who is "in heaven". they interact with charaters who are in heaven. and in chapter 19 it is the exact same greek words used for great crown as in chapter 7. what does the evidance reasonably support? that they are two completely different "great crowds" that happen to be in the same place and described by the same greek words, or that the same bible book refers to the same group by the same name two times? I leave it to you.
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TrueScript
elderelite,
They are "before the throne," but we can not set aside the distinction between these and the martyrs in Revelation 6. If they are not the martyrs, who are they? Is there another group in heaven with which they can be identified?
John is not provided means of identifying the voice in Revelation 19 and he is not told their identity. He records the "voice of a great crowd," but without further specificiation. Too many assumptions are required for this to prove anything about Revelation 7. Could these be the harpists of Revelation 14:2? Or perhaps the 24 elders of Revelation 5? Either would make sense.
TS
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designs
Rabbinic lesson for the day-
Gan Eden is described in the Midrash as having 5 to 7 chambers reserved for categories of the righteous. The 3rd chamber is where the great questions of the Torah will be answered by G-d himself and Mosheh Rabbenu will assist (Moses).
The 5th chamber of Gan Eden is built of all the precious stones and crystals with the river Gihon flowing through it. It is to resemble the ancient Tabernacle.
When one enters Gan Eden 600,000 angels greet you and remove your old clothes and dress you in garments made of clouds.
From the time of Rabbi Rab in Babylon to Maimonides time in Moorish Spain caution was taught about speculations and uber literal interpretations of things which really appear like a childs imagination.
The lesson from the Torah and Jewish tradition- 'the pomegranate is full of seeds'.....ask Mosheh Rabbenu when the time comes.