by Nickolas 42 Replies latest jw friends
I'm sorry you have a hole in your relationship with your wife.
I wouldn't be able to leave it alone. I was born to question and I simply can't stop.
Perhaps a question like:
"Does it make sense to ask other people to examine their religion with you and not allow others to do the same with yours?"
More good advice, thank you. I require no convincing that my wife's faith in the WTBS is virtually impenetrable, also that she loves me deeply. Neither one of us has ever wanted anyone else. We have been devoted lovers since we were teenagers and we have been together more than 39 years, 37 of those as husband and wife, 33 of those living with this philosophical disconnection. She loves me for many reasons, not the least of which is I am an honest, moral and honorable man in her eyes, and I think I am, too. What disturbs my sleep is the ticking of the clock, the time we have left together. She has a fervent hope of everlasting life while I do not. She recognises that my atheism, materialism and hedonism are not compatible with an expectation of entering into Jehovah's Kingdom (Matthew 19:24, John 11:26) and has brought herself to the verge of tears thinking about eternity without me. The way I feel toward this woman is if given the choice between eternity without her and oblivion I would readily choose the latter. That's a completely theoretical hypothetical to an atheist, to be sure, but I am not at all sure I could go on living without her if it turns out that she makes her exit before I do. Unconditional love. Her love for me is powerful, but her love for Jehovah, who I do not believe exists, is stronger still. She says this is an apples and oranges comparison, and maybe she's right, but it doesn't feel very good.
We are both getting old. 33 years of baby steps of hints and subtle comments (and yes, sometimes big leaps backwards from an unfortunate heated outburst) have gained no ground and I begin to feel a greater sense of urgency. Still, I do appreciate the insights available in this forum and welcome your coaching.
Nickolas,
I think it might be apples and oranges too. There is more than one kind of love and Jehovah won't be holding her in his arms like you can do.
If you push too hard she might feel she has to choose and that is the last thing you want to happen.
The world is not going to end , and you know that. Even if your wife really believes it - it still won't' happen. There is no reason you two cannot grow old together and love each other until the end- which will hopefully be a long time from now.
Nick,
Looking at your pink tail, tusks, blue eyes, green complexion, and ponytail, what could your wife NOT love?
My tusks are a bit yellow, perhaps stained somewhat from too much tea, eyes are brown, complexion definitely pinkish, ponytail thinning desperately from what it once was and my tail, well, never mind.
i would do it subtly and quietly and gently, if at all, cos they would see spiritually endangering her and them as a fate worse than sitting round a table with you after you had beaten your wife black and blue or cheated on her with 100 women or (men!),
subtle subtle subtle, play them at their own game, and Dont mention the word Cult - they will see you as dangerous as soon as you do,
just ask "sincere" questions "but i dont understand .........." they will love that, they will think they are helping you but in fact you will be getting a legitimate opening to bring up "apostate" ideas" to them!!
god ive just realised how devious that sounds - that says it all about me being brought up as a very righteious jw!
of course then they will keep on preaching to you, so it might be best for you to just say you dont want to discuss religion at all,
up to you, if you want to rock the boat or not - just think about the consequences of your speaking out, and if you are ready for them,
nicholas, you wrote earlier
"the df'ed one, her nephew, coming to our house, but she won't allow herself to be in it at the same time, which I cannot agree with."
why make this an issue, we both know marriage is about compromise
does the nephew know the "rules"--is he making an issue out of it?
if i were in your shoes, i'd meet with your nephew--without your wife there: if they are happy with that, why make a rod for your own back.
Never try to tell a JW anything. There is a huge amount of information on the internet that you can show them. Don't tell them any of it and certainly don't show them any of it. They are trained not to listen. They are taught that Apostate websites are full of lies, you are trying to take them away from Jehovah and that you are influenced by Satan. So, what can you do???
Ask questions.
They are trained to teach, so ask questions. Ask in such a way that they feel obligated to answer. They are taught that they have knowledge that is neccessary to survive Armageddon, which is coming soon, and that it is their duty to share it. Use that to your advantage.
They are there to save you. You have a question. It is your question that is important because if they can't answer it with honesty and integrity, then they will never accomplish their God given mission.
Remember: You are not there to answer their questions. (They are not interested in your answers except to get you to make a mistake so that they can pounce on it.)
If you do have to show them something, try to make it something that they have in their own home. Try to stick to WT literature that they have in their possession or computer and books and articles that their literature has quoted from, and get them to read it to you and comment on it.
The primary doctrine is that the WT was selected by Jesus, in 1919, to be God's sole channel of communication to mankind in our day. As long as they believe that, the WT has full mind control. This is true even if they are studying, unbaptised, drifted or disfellowshipped. Everything the WT teaches is believed because of that doctrine. If the WT changed a doctrine tomorrow, they would believe the change, even if it is contradicted by the Bible or Jesus or Jehovah himself.
Your questions should be constructed to steer them towards stating their belief in that doctrine, but try not to put words in their mouths.
Some sample questions:
How do you know the WT is better than the Catholics/Evangelicals/Muslems/Mormons/whatever?
How do you know Jesus selected them?
When did Jesus select them?
Why did Jesus select them?
Can you show me an article that says that, please?
All the time asking, "How do you know ...?" type questions to steer them where you want them to go.
If they make a claim about the WT that you suspect is untrue demand that they prove it, or get them to read, to you, a WT article that you know contradicts them. NOTE: Do not read it to them!!!!!
Don't get sidetracked.
Red herrings are their favorite trick. They are trained to distract you from your subject and are experts at it.
Rule #1: Don't change the subject.
Rule #2: Don't let them change the subject.
Every time you read a disaster story about a conversation with a JW, the JW has had control of the subjects.
The tricks they use are mostly diversion tactics. They will:
Talk volumes about a related subject without discussing your question.
Ask a question about another subject.
Attack another church or their doctrine.
Attack your character.
Attack your motives.
JWs never stay with a subject that they are uncomfortable with, so, if one tries to change the subject, that is a very good indication that you should stay on that subject. Try to make them feel guilty for attempting to use these tactics on you. Use parallels to religions that they consider to be false if you can. If they have previously denegrated a religion for using the tactics they are using on you, point it out and pour on the guilt for it. Act offended that they should do such a thing to you. Guilt, guilt, guilt.
If a conversation reaches a stalemate, or one of you needs to go away to do some research, finish the conversation and walk away. Do not start another subject. Do not let them start another subject. They will always want to start another subject because they want to end the conversation feeling as though they have had a 'win' and they can do that if they can pick a subject that they are good at and you are not. It is time to go. Now. You can talk about sport or politics or itchy underclothing, but do not discuss another religious subject.
Once they have confirmed that they believe their primary doctrine, it is time to ask them how they know that they were selected in the year 1919 .... and that is another subject. It is an easy subject, but once again, it is all about knowing how to control the subject and not get sidetracked. They know how to take an easy subject and make it sound really complicated, so you must learn control.
Control, control, control.
I hope some of that helps.
Cheers
Chris
Chris, I am very grateful for your long and thoughtful post. Thank you. You have doubtless identified the key variable. If I have but one personal deficiency to overcome (recognizing I have a multitude) it is control. I have made zero progress over more than three decades precisely because I have almost invariably lost my temper in frustration. Aesop's fable about the wind and the sun come to mind. I have always been the wind.
Bigmac, my wife's compromise is to allow her nephew's visit to our home only on the condition she not be present. Emphasis on our, our home. I perceive refusal to welcome someone you ostensibly love to be a hurtful act in which, through my own compromise, I would be made complicit. This I cannot do.
If I have but one personal deficiency to overcome (recognizing I have a multitude) it is control.
Me too.
It takes a lot of effort on my part. I am easily sidetracked. I have to keep asking myself.......... are they still answering my question, or have they skived off somewhere else?? If they have, I just ignor whatever we are discussing now and rip them straight back on topic. I accuse them of trying to fool me. How dare they do that to their own husband/son/father. If there is going to be any chance of me ever joining their church (I forgot to get baptised... whew!!!)... they have to answer my question with honesty and integrity and with an answer that I can be comfortable presenting at a door, because I am not going to be banging on doors teaching people something that I know I can't support.
They have to answer my question.
If they try to bring up another subject in twenty minutes, or twenty days, I make it clear that I will discuss it with them ..... after ..... they have answered my outstanding question.
So........ if you ask a Dub relative a question...... make it a good one.......... and know all their standard answers/tactics/diversions before they try them on.
It is more fun having a beer with your mates and that is my preferred option.
Cheers
Chris
