by Nickolas 42 Replies latest jw friends
but I was under the impression that there are strict rules for divorce, even in the WTBS
When dealing with a "spiritual danger", the rules go out the window. Legal divorce can happen without a "Scriptural" divorce. It's adultery that is punishable, not the divorce. I personally know someone who lost his wife over it. There are probably many more, here.
Lots of good advice already. I am married to a convert jw, he got sucked in a number of years ago now. We had many, many battles and because I am still here obviously I made no real headway. Hard to do when one day they may agree with you but the next day they see their jw buddies and any headway you may have made goes out the window.
I never allowed any jw publications in our home lying about. Well, he could have, but then I would have brought out ALL my apostate literature which is considerable! We now have a silent rule about it I guess. He doesn't leave any jw stuff out and I don't leave any apostate stuff out. That way I don't have the wt thrown in my face at every turn in the house and likewise with him. I imagine your wife reads the wt's in front of you and keeps a NWT around? How would she feel if you were reading C of C in front of her? Had King James or Living Bible around? They never think of how they would feel if the tables were turned unless you take real physical action. Took a little while for my jw to figure it out but it makes for a more peaceful home not to have their ungodly rags lying about all the time.
As for visitors, yes, the house is half his as it is half mine, however, should he have decided to start entertaining these people in my home it would not have been pretty. Have these same people who asked him to lie to me & kids about his jw-ism and sneak out of the house?! sure, bring it on. He could have had them over but then I would have found apostates, Wiccans and any other group I knew they found objectionable. We have a jw free zone in our home except for him of course. What's good for the goose is good for the gander philosophy.
As for the df'd nephew, that is just so unloving! Does she expect you to be there when the jw (conditional) 'friends' come by? How would she like it if you suddenly refused to be home if they were there? I'm sure after all these year she would be confused, hurt and find you completely unreasonable. How should it be any different when you would like to see the df'd nephew? In my opinion jw's tend to be selfish people and you have to constantly remind them how it would be if the shoe were on the other foot so to speak.
Use your man status if necessary!
You are obviously as frustrated as I am, Carla. But, no, she doesn't leave WT literature lying around the house. She has a large collection of books and magazines but keeps them sequestered in her sewing room, which is a space all her own. In deference I do not keep contrarian books lying around, either. I suppose this is similar to your silent rule. How unfortunate, however, that we need silent rules at all.
I have a pretty good relationship with my wife's JW associates, with one or two exceptions. There is one, an elder, who has shown up uninvited at the house on occasion, accompanied by telltail signs of nervousness in my wife's body language. I suspect he has come to assess the "situation", although he has not come out and stated such, which is good because I might otherwise find it difficult to reign in my ire. I have little respect for the man because he seems to have a feigned respect for me, but also because he is not very bright yet overconfident in the illusion of authority he assumes upon himself. There are others, however, I respect a great deal, in spite of the fallacy of their beliefs. These are articulate, intelligent and accomplished people who, to their credit, studiously avoid conversations of a Watchtower nature, if you know what I mean. Regardless, I do not mind having these people in my home so long as they honor the unspoken detente protocol. The gloves might come off the moment they do not.
It seems, Carla, that you and I have the same problem and, if you will permit me to be candid, that problem extends into our approach, which is clearly not working. Reading over Chris' advice above it could be that maybe he is onto something. What is it you, and I, want to accomplish? If the objective is to free your mate from the chains of this organization then going to battle against him is likely going to bolster the opposite outcome. He will become further entrenched and his Kingdom Hall associates will close ranks around him and you will not be allowed to get through. I think that love and patience (control) may be the answer, while dismantling the wall between the two of you one brick at a time. The approach of doing your homework, posing a single question and sticking to the subject gently but tenaciously seems a sound strategy - and just maybe extracting a single structural brick, to continue the analogy, will cause the wall to come tumbling down. But what question to ask? I am gleaning from conversations on this board that the subject of the Watchtower doctrine of having been examined by Christ himself and approved as Jehovah's organization in 1919 may be the one. I believe this is the approach that is recommended by Don Cameron in his book "Captives of a Concept", which I have yet to acquire and read.
Chris, could you expand on things?
Oh by all means I cannot tell you what to do but I sure can tell you all the mistakes I have made! First mistake and most deadly- using the c word, cult. Once that cat is out of the bag it's pretty much all over. You are now one of satan's minions.
I can tell you that I have tried every conceivable way to reach mine including having a cult expert here. In my opinion until they truly care more about truth or God they will not question anything. Research of course is not encouraged and so you can't even ask simple non doctrinal questions just to get a conversation going! Let's say you wanted to discuss food or clothing from biblical times, if it wasn't in the wt's (when I say wt's I mean any wt literature, books, etc..) you can't use historical records etc... because as you know they (scholars) are part of satans system too.
I highly recommend 'Captives of a Concept'! it helped me to fully understand their crazy doctrine so that I could ask questions. Like an attorney, never ask a question you don't know the answer to. I know wt literature better than my jw (and better than an MS and elder did) and it drives him a bit crazy. For instance, lets say you get on the topic of paranormal, astology, necromancy, phrenology or something of that nature, the jw will villify it, naturally, but then you can say you know of religions that condoned such practices, the jw will act righteously indignant and say how that is just proof that 'other religions' are of satan, blah, blah, blah.... then you come out with which old wt actually stated such things. crickets will chirp and it will be time to change the subject. Or maybe the jw will say that is old, but then you can ask where the expiration date is on the old wt's? the wt itself has suggested you research old publications before bothering the elders or hq with questions. Besides, if new light has not been printed then old light stand.
There are so many different questions you could ask a jw particularly if you know their literature.
What approach to take with a jw? I have tried all of them, read all about cults, mind control, the wt, biblical, doctrinal, historical, Steve Hassans books, you name I've tried it. As of late we just don't discuss it unless he tries to slip in some crazy thing in conversation around family that I know full well came from the latest wt and is a load of crap. Then I will call him on it without even mentioning jw's or the wt but rather in vague terms. I absolutely will not allow him to get away with what he thinks is covert indoctrination practices, ever.
one day they may agree with you but the next day they see their jw buddies and any headway you may have made goes out the window
The headway you made isn't gone, it is just suppressed. Keep at it; you are building the foundation of congnitive dissonance. There are times you are speaking with the authentic person and there are times you are speaking with the cult-personality. If you know the person well you can learn how to tell the difference.
Never give up. It is a longer road for some than for others but getting folks out isn't impossible. People leave the JWs all the time. The rate isn't high but it is steady. You're not alone.
The authentic person vs the cult personality- scary shit that! scared me silly the first time I saw that, the eyes really and truly glazed over not to mention the later completely different facial mannerisms! he took on whoever he was first studying with I think. The kids called the new look the 'icky js smirk', the 'creepy jw look' , and others I will not mention here. Scary as hell when first you see it! I of course had read about it but never quite believed it could be so obvious. He even took on new and different body language that clearly did not belong to him. Now it seems the facial mannerisms have pretty much reverted to his older pre jw self but every now and again I can still see it in his eyes. If we are having a rare jw discussion I can tell right away when his mind is gone, a mask seems to come over his face and eyes. Sounds outrageous I know, but it's true. When that happens I know he is in full cult mode and will not hear anything I have to say so yes, I give up at that point.
Never give up? yeah, I know. I and the whole family needed a long break from all things jw for own mental sanity. A delicate truce of sorts has been called I guess, though the war could break out at any time with that giant pink elephant following us around everywhere we go!
Carla, if I may ask, how did you broach the subject of the Society being chosen by Jesus in 1919 and what was your husband's reaction and response?
Nickolas:
Please read this thread:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/200293/1/Broken-Heart
I tried the link, leavingwt, but the first page is frozen. I get the drift, however. Thanks
The authentic person vs the cult personality ... the eyes really and truly glazed over not to mention the later completely different facial mannerisms!
Yes. I've seen it too. It was amazing how the eyes seemed to glaze over... it was almost like seeing a light fade in them as their brain went into cult mode. People may scoff...and I would too if I had never witnessed it, but it happened.
What was creepy was that this as an otherwise intelligent, logical person that in all other areas of normal life is quite capable of seeing through bullshit and not easily taken in. But when the subject of JWs comes up, the brakes apply, the brain goes into neutral, and the JW auto pilot takes over. They literally become a zombie. It's at that point that anything you say is a complete waste of time. They don't hear it, they're temporarily brain dead.
