by Lily Pie 272 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
But we are still free to reject grace/God.
OK, Can you explain how babies and the mentally ill exercise that "freedom"? How is an infant able to make "free" choices?
You said my position doesn't make sense. I don't see how yours is any better in fact from where I sit it looks even more confusing.
I appreciate your patience as well. This isn't just me trying to trap you, it's an issue many families face, everyday.
Are you having issues with the word reject or freedom?
It seems it is my choce of the word freedom that is causing your confusion, yes?
Can a Baby or a mentally ill person reject grace?
I don't see how.
Terry, may I ask why you choose to focus on God as being a God of justice? He is a God of mercy. If he wasn't, well, we probably wouldn't still be here.
Tammy, stop and think about it.
There is a basis for what happens throughout the universe. It is cause and effect. Endless cause and effect.
Now pause a moment.
IF God is the source of all other things (not being self-created) He is the FIRST cause leading to all subsequent causes and effects.
On what basis does God operate if not one of balance?
JUSTICE is a restorative balance between cause and effect. IF this.....THEN that... .
Justice is: getting what you deserve (due to what you've done) and NOT getting what you don't deserve. (Unearned rewards).
Name one deed prior to Jesus Christ whereby God did not operate out of the foundation of JUSTICE?
What is the covenant between God and Israel all about if not redressing the imbalance between deed and consequence according to God's standard of what is just?
That is the huge flaw in the concocted Jesus story which violates Justice and turns it inside out.
Jesus clearly is without sin. He did not CAUSE a wrongful act and does not DESERVE a wrongful consequence.
Where does the GRACE doctrine rest in terms of JUSTness?
Those who have earned death by wrongful deeds (humans cause harm) suddenly do not earn the natural consequences! (God's kindness is clearly stated to be "undeserved"!)
JUSTICE--having always been the basis of God's dealings is violated!
God is the same yesterday, today and forever---we are told, and yet---the God of Jesus is the polar opposite of Justice!!
Also, I disagree that the basis for love is value. I know others share it, but it seems cold and legalistic and tit for tat to me, which just seems like a business exchange and not unselfish - love to me should be about giving, not about gaining.
Tammy
Okay, Tammy. What are you left with? An uncaused emotion? The strongest possible emotion without a basis? Emotions are the EFFECT of an internal CAUSE.
What you value is your appraisal of things as they are as to the scale of excellence all the way over to worthless and destructive.
To LOVE is to recognize within somebody or some thing the embodiment of what you appraise as excellent.
To love is to assign merit.
If we, then, love what is not worth loving we diminsh ourselves because a person is the essence of what they love.
It is a grading scale within attributing VALUE based on your personal and individual consciousness as the person you are.
No two people grade the same way, do they?
I love apricot pie and and somebody else like Rhubarb.
I like short brunettes and somebody else likes tall blondes.
I love Rachmaninoff's piano concertos while others may prefer Pink Floyd.
The evaluation (values) trigger the emotional reactions!
To the BELIEVER, then, God is the source of all actual VALUES.
God's love must then follow the course of echoing God's valuation as to the scale between excellent perfect all the way over to repugnant destruction.
Does this not make perfect sense? What can be "cold" about understanding the source of our emotions?
Emotions are never a SOURCE of comprehension. They are the reaction to our values.
Once you understand your own values you will understand your emotions.
love to me should be about giving, not about gaining.
This is like saying the economy should be based on payments and not receivables.
Where is the balance that enables payments to be made FROM receivables with a profit left over?
You must earn a living to be able to pay your bills, but, if you only earn enough to pay bills without anything left over
you are a wage slave and your life is unsuccessful due to debt burden.
THINK ABOUT IT: a person who doesn't understand that we EARN the success we live with by applying a balance between
earning/spending is doomed to unsuccess and quickly becomes dependant and a burden to others.
By saying LOVE should be about giving is to say there is no balance to the greatest value in life!
It is a violation of cause and effect by which the universe operates!
We have been taught (in our Western society) that it is more "blessed" to give than to receive without first building a foundational understanding
of balance between giving and receiving.
Psychiatrists constantly counsel battered wives and dysfunctional familes not to become ENABLERS to toxic members by giving and loving which feeds the destructive behaviors of others.
This is that rift: the imbalance between acting on a value and simply blindly operating without cause.
Are you having issues with the word reject or freedom?
It seems it is my choce of the word freedom that is causing your confusion, yes?
Can a Baby or a mentally ill person reject grace?
I don't see how.
I think it's causing your confusion. Are you saying you don' see how a baby has "freedom" in this matter? Because I don't either.
Yes I am saying that a baby doesn't have the freedom ( I don't think there is another word I can use) to reject God's Grace untill the baby is old enough to choose to do so and that a person with a mental handicap is also not "free" to "reject" God's grace because his mental faculties are not developed.
Grace being an unmerited or undeserved FAVOUR is something we are born with so, no, we don't have freedom to reject it until we are aware of the choice, unless of course you believe that there is NO choice and that we are born with it preordained for us already.
Tammy, stop and think about it. There is a basis for what happens throughout the universe. It is cause and effect. Endless cause and effect. Now pause a moment. IF God is the source of all other things (not being self-created) He is the FIRST cause leading to all subsequent causes and effects. On what basis does God operate if not one of balance?
What balance? Man's idea of balance? Or God's idea of it? I ask because you and I tend to start off with opposing premises. God is love and mercy. Is there justice in that, sure, but love and mercy are more important. Love trumps/conquers all.
Love begets love, Terry - in the same way that war begets war. Someone who has been loved, forgiven and shown mercy - especially when they have done nothing to deserve that love - is more likely to show love, forgiveness and mercy to another person.
So there IS cause and effect. Just not the cause and effect you think of when you think of justice, and not of love and mercy.
JUSTICE is a restorative balance between cause and effect. IF this.....THEN that.... Justice is: getting what you deserve (due to what you've done) and NOT getting what you don't deserve. (Unearned rewards). Name one deed prior to Jesus Christ whereby God did not operate out of the foundation of JUSTICE?
Each time the Israelites prayed to be set free from their slavery? If you're going to say that they repented first, then I'm going to ask you if you think that is justice. Or is it justice tempered with mercy. How many times did they mess up and get conquered, etc? Every time, once they prayed and repented, He saved them, according to what is written.
Is that justice to you, Terry, or does that sound like mercy?
(on to the next part now :)
Tammy
Emotions are the EFFECT of an internal CAUSE. What you value is your appraisal of things as they are as to the scale of excellence all the way over to worthless and destructive. To LOVE is to recognize within somebody or some thing the embodiment of what you appraise as excellent... it is a grading scale within attributing VALUE based on your personal and individual consciousness as the person you are. No two people grade the same way, do they? I love apricot pie and and somebody else like Rhubarb... The evaluation (values) trigger the emotional reactions! To the BELIEVER, then, God is the source of all actual VALUES. God's love must then follow the course of echoing God's valuation as to the scale between excellent perfect all the way over to repugnant destruction.
Okay, I've paraphrased what you wrote, because I think my answer is all summed up in the very last line. I'll use a scripture only because everyone knows it and it makes my point:
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son..."
God loved the world. Enough to offer the entire world forgiveness, mercy, grace - through his Son, who He sent us to teach us the Way and Truth to Life.
God loves me, even though I don't deserve it... this in turn inspires me to love 'the world' whether I share the values of someone else or not. It isn't something I consciously do because I feel I owe it for the grace and love given me - it is a natural consequence of accepting and receiving that grace and love. Cause and effect, Terry.
So you see, I do understand the source of my emotions, and it is not cold. And it does make perfect sense... to me.
If we, then, love what is not worth loving we diminsh ourselves because a person is the essence of what they love.
Or perhaps how they love.
I've missed you, btw. We haven't gotten 'into' it in quite some time :)
Tammy
Psac
Grace being an unmerited or undeserved FAVOUR is something we are born with...
Where did you come up with this... stuff? Certainly not the bible.
... no, we don't have freedom to reject it until we are aware of the choice,
So you believe eternal life (salvation) is something you can lose?
Have you personally ever heard of someone KNOWINGLY making this choice not to keep God's grace?
God is love and mercy.
God IS love? I'm sure you realize that is a poetic and not a literal statement. Right?
So what IS love, then and what is its cause, source and justification?
It all comes back to an evaluation. Things aren't automatically and intrinsically loveable and neither are people. They must be evaluated AS loveable.
If you leave that step out , then, LOVE is an uncaused cause. But, LOVE is not an uncaused anything. It IS caused. A conscious (or, unconscious) evaluation is the cause. The assessment of the VALUE is the cause. That part comes automatically because it is done subconsciously.
If you are afraid of snakes and you "think" you see one next to you----automatically----you'll jump out of the way and your heart will be pounding.
Why? The evaluation process took place in an instant of time and you reacted even without thinking on a higher level.
Notice I said "think" you see a snake. If you were fooled by a rope or garden hose you still react AS THOUGH it were really a snake.
AUTOMATIC responses are CAUSED by our perceptions or misperceptions and feed directly THROUGH our VALUES. Then comes the emotion.
It can be LOVE, FEAR, LAUGHTER or many of the other feelings we experience.
All are CAUSED.
Is there justice in that, sure, but love and mercy are more important. Love trumps/conquers all.
Love and Mercy cannot be MORE important than justice.
A person who "loves" a serial killer might not turn them in to the police. The killer conquers all in that situation!
That battered wife who "loves" their brutal mate might end up dead from protecting them from the consequences of their misdeeds. The dead wife is conquered by the "love".
MERCY is only useful when it is tempered by a justifiable willingness for change and some mitigating circumstance which fits the situation.
THERE ARE NO UNCAUSED values such as LOVE or MERCY----they are the result of either accurate or--in many cases--INaccurate evaluations by mixed up people!
Justice is a superior principle to LOVE and MERCY because JUSTICE always applies the rule: You should get what you deserve and never get what you don't.
When JUSTICE is applied, Love always follows merit and mercy follows an honest mitigation.
That is why I say Grace is bunk. Unmerited anything is counterfeit and worthless. Especially Love.
Each time the Israelites prayed to be set free from their slavery? If you're going to say that they repented first, then I'm going to ask you if you think that is justice. Or is it justice tempered with mercy. How many times did they mess up and get conquered, etc? Every time, once they prayed and repented, He saved them, according to what is written.
Is that justice to you, Terry, or does that sound like mercy?
Tammy quotes scripture!
John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son..."
And Terry still asks the unanswered question: ON WHAT BASIS does God so LOVE the world? How is that love justified by destroying the fairness
of getting what you deserve rather than getting what you don't??
Jesus did NOT deserve EXCRUCIATING death.
Justice is violated. Justice is fairness, balance, reward for merit and protection of the innocent.
You will not say how God justifies loving sinful wretches more than he loved his son! You will not say why God violates Justice.
There is a reason for this: you don't understand it. You simply assert, assert, assert that God's love is without cause and his Justice isn't important.
