by Lily Pie 272 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
grace sounds more joyous and bountiful than undeserved kindess.
translating charis as undeserved kindness is also something I disagree with. I think charis is a noun and an adjective. I don't think Charis is a verb, although this noun does have a relationship with the verb rejoice.
debator I've been reading your posts and you get things very confused.
and I think the word charity comes from charis/grace. Charity is given to people not because they are undeserving but because the giver wants to be generous and loving.
thankyou stephen
Curtains and I think the word charity comes from charis/grace. Charity is given to people not because they are undeserving but because the giver wants to be generous and loving.
Indeed http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/5485.htm :)
Good to have you here!
Blessings,
Stephen
Nice to see you here! In answer to your question I have pasted a page from the book - Opening the Door to Jehovah's Witnesses (available on Lulu)
These are the Watchtower society's own words. I hope this is of help:
The Society’s publication “Babylon the Great has Fallen” 1963 explains:
“The person now righteous in God’s sight should keep on practising righteousness. The one who is holy as a slave of God should continue being made holy. Otherwise they will lose all the credit they have built up by their previous righteousness and holiness. But if they keep on in righteousness and holiness, they will at last have an accumulated credit with God and be richly rewarded for this. What a warning and an encouragement!” (Page 672)
This is in contrast to the Bible passages shown below:“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom (paid) by Jesus Christ.” (Romans 3: 22-24 - The “New World Translation” - the Society’s own Bible – from now on referred to as NWT)
“For it is by his grace you are saved, through trusting in him; it is not your own doing. It is God’s gift, not a reward for work done.” (Ephesians 2:8. – The New English Bible – from now on referred to as NE)
The Bible indicates that there is a standard for Christians but states that being declared righteous is a free gift and not the result of accumulated credit. Nevertheless a trained Witness may persuade you otherwise and encourage you to join and earn your salvation.
Thank you all for your posts so far.
So lovely to take the time.
Thank you Gladiator for your thoughtful post. Your quote, from WT literature, though old, is probably still very relevant. "Credits" hmmm. You would always be wondering if you had enough wouldn't you? I'm interested to know whats parts of the bible JW's use to *show* me about earning my salvation.
What do rank and file JW's really believe about this (Grace, salvation with faith alone)? That you earn salvation? Do they view Christendoms ideals of Grace for salvation with contempt? Or are they ignorant, is it a non issue?
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Interesting about the translation. I have a different view. I think that evenwith a biased translation like the NWT, you could sit down and read it with an open heart and mind, and reach the usual conclusions about Grace, Faith, Works and Christ. it's difficult to pervert the word so badly that the big picture is missed. The problem is the translation is way to clunky, it's easier to read the WT. They removed "Grace" out the translation, to differentiate themselves maybe?.
You could use "grace" as a verb or a noun? It doesn't change the overarching theology does it?
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Debator. -- Love = Charity. Indeed. God is love. God is Charity. Examples.... Matt:22:36-40. Matt:24:34-46. Grace, through Jesus, is the greatest reflection of love and/or charity. John3:16.
Hi chalam and Curtains
"Undeserved kindness" as an alternative english wording to "grace" is used by more than just the Witnesses and is accepted as a fine translation of the Greek word "charis".
The New International Version: Keyword Study Bible in its "New Testament Lexical Aids" under the word KHARIS informs us:
"CHARIS...From its root, this word denotes that which causes joy, pleasure, that which creates delight in the recipient or observer. Hence, it is used with some latitude to mean gratification, thankfulness, gratitude or appreciation for a kindness granted or desired: a benefit, favor or gift: acceptance, approval, genorosity, open heartedness, or magnanimity. It was used especially to describe favors done without expectation of return. In reference to God we might understand it as the absolutely free expression of His loving-kindness to men, finding its only motive in His bounty and benevolence as the Giver: His unearned and unmerited favour. .....Meanings of charis:.....2. Grace, in act and deed, a favor conferred, a kindess, benefit, gift..."-p1686. italics ours
From Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament we read, in part:
".....2 Subjectively, (a) on the part of the giver, grace, graciousness, kindness, goodwill, favour; esp. in the N.T. of the divine favour, grace, with emphasis on its freeness and universality.-
Joseph H. Thayer in his lexicon says: "The word [kha´ris] contains the idea of kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved . . . the N. T. writers use [kha´ris] pre-eminently of that kindness by which God bestows favors even upon the ill-deserving, and grants to sinners the pardon of their offences, and bids them accept of eternal salvation through Christ." (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1889,)
The New Testament in the Language of the People by Charles B. Williams reads:
"For it is by his unmerited favor(Greek: KHARIS)through faith that you have been saved; it is not by anything that you have done, it is the gift of God."
A little research shows "undeserved Kindness" as a perfectly good translation for "charis"
now a look at Agape/love/charity.
Our LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - King James Version Agape
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
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Originally in Latin the word caritas meant preciousness, dearness, high price. From this, in Christian theology, caritas became the standard Latin translation for the Greek word agape, meaning an unlimited loving-kindness to all others, such as the love of God.
St Paul's agape was not primarily about good works and giving to the poor [dubious – discuss] (And though I feed the poor with all my goods, and though I give my body, that I be burned, and have not love [agape], it profiteth me nothing - 1 Cor 13:3, Geneva translation, 1560), although in English the word "charity" has steadily acquired this as its primary meaning, wherein it was first used in Old French at least since the year 1200 A.D..
This is were the English word really fails us as a language. We only have one word for such a complex thing as love and it is so much more than this especially Biblically.
I was a JW for 23 years, with more than six years spent at Brooklyn Bethel. Never once did I hear the word 'Grace'. It's safe to say that 99% of JWs don't have a clue what Grace is.
WT is a works-base, apocalyptic, millenarian, mind-control cult.
All doctrine boils down to this: WT is always right, no matter what the Bible/evidence/reality says.
Hi, and welcome, LilyPie.
Cute username - LOL.
I was a converted JW from 1974 to 2005.
I left because the WT has usurped the position of Jesus Christ, and subverted the grace of the Father.
The teaching that grace alone is sufficient for salvation is, indeed, viewed with contempt by WT and JW's.
For a time and a season, I bought into that, and spent my time zealously witnessing to whomever I met.
It took a nervous breakdown before I finally saw the futility of such an endeavor.
Hope this helps answer your questions.
Syl
