I think I figured out why Jesus ended up being such an important figure in history!

by sabastious 53 Replies latest social humour

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    There are quite a few books out there about that, with variosu themes.

    I can suggest "Jesus and the Victory of God" by NT wright, but itis a long read, over 700 pages.

    There are a few out there about the historical reliablity of the gospels too.

    I had a similar conversation to this one perhaps five years ago with a fundamentalist Christian from Mississippi who was at the time a business associate. I was struggling with my faith and he said he had an outstanding book, not the one you are recommending, that put forward a compelling argument for not only the existence of Jesus of Nazareth but also for his divinity. It was called "The Case for Christ", 300+ pages written by Lee Strobel. I devoured every word with great anticipation that a light would go on but it didn't happen. I was frankly disappointed. The book presented itself as a journalist's personal investigation of the evidence for Jesus, but there was no evidence to be found. There were logical arguments, certainly, but most were rhetorical, none of them irrefutable and none of them could be construed in the strictest sense as evidence.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    My mind and heart were set at ease, except that I felt bad for having doubted Him to begin with.

    There is no doubt that faith in Jesus (or Mohammed or Buddha or Khrishna) provides comfort, hope and reassurance for millions, Tammy, and it would be wrong of me to try to wrench that away from anyone who really needs religious faith in order to go on living their lives. My wife said to me once, if there is no God, then why bother? Why don't we just get it over with and shoot ourselves? Point taken. But comfort, hope and reassurance do not in any way indicate that what one holds in his or her heart to be true is in fact true. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and where such evidence is lacking the claims are at best cast in shadows of doubt.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Nickolas,

    Sometimes we find in books what we are looking for and sometimes we find in books what we need and sometimes we don't find anythign at all.

    It all depends on with what preconceived notions we have going into reading a book and yes, we ALL have them.

    I read the book you mentioned and found it to be "just fine" for what it was, but then I didn't epect to "learn" anything from it.

    If you are looking for emperical evidence, you will probably have to figure out what the evidence is that will satisfy you, before you start looking.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    If you are looking for emperical evidence, you will probably have to figure out what the evidence is that will satisfy you, before you start looking.

    The existence of Jesus of Nazareth and his alleged divinity is to me a subset of a much larger conversation about the existence of God, whether He be the terrifying god of the Bible or some not-yet-perceived creator of the universe. Evidence that Jesus of Nazareth actually walked the earth could be in the form of contemporary secular accounts of his activities written independently but which are generally collaborative. Evidence of his divinity would take a form that is in keeping with the extraordinary claims made on his behalf. What would convince me of the existence of God, and possibly the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth, would be a miracle witnessed by a multitude of people including myself. Multitudinous miraculous events are, after all, what are cited time and time again in the Bible as evidence. But if there once was an age of miracles, it is apparently past. While once God manifested his power and glory for the world to see, He is now silent and requires that we simply believe that He even exists at all.

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    This quote from Christopher Hitchens is apropos - it's a little long, for which I apologise, but worthwhile reading.

    "Miracles have declined, in their wondrous impact, since ancient times. Moreover, the more recent ones that have been offered us have been slightly tawdry. The notorious annual liquefaction of the blood of San Gennaro in Naples, for example, is a phenomenon that can easily be (and has been) repeated by any competent conjuror. Great secular "magicians" like Harry Houdini and James Randi have demonstrated with ease that levitation, fire-walking, water-divining, and spoon-bending can all be performed, under laboratory conditions, in order to expose the fraud and to safeguard the unwary customer from a fleecing. Miracles in any case do not vindicate the truth of the religion that practices them: Aaron supposedly vanquished Pharoah's magicians in an open competition but did not deny that they could perform wonders as well. However, there has not been a claimed resurrection for some time and no shaman who purports to do it has ever agreed to reproduce his trick in such a way as to stand a challenge. Thus we must ask ourselves: Has the art of resurrection died out? Or are we relying on dubious sources?

    The New Testament is itself a highly dubious source. (One of Professor Barton Ehrman's more astonishing findings is that the account of Jesus's resurrection in the Gospel of Mark was only added many years later.) But according to the New Testament, the thing could be done in an almost commonplace way. Jesus managed it twice in other people's cases, by raising both Lazarus and the daughter of Jairus, and nobody seems to have thought it worthwhile to interview either survivor to ask about their extraordinary experiences. Nor does anyone seem to have kept a record of whether or not, or how, these two individuals "died" again. If they stayed immortal, then they joined the ancient company of the "Wandering Jew," who was condemned by early Christianity to keep walking forever after he met Jesus on the Via Dolorosa, this misery being inflicted upon a mere bystander in order to fulfill the otherwise unfulfilled prophecy that Jesus would come again in the lifetime of at least one person who had seen him the first time around. On the same day that Jesus met that luckless vagrant, he was himself put to death with revolting cruelty, at which time, according to the Gospel of Matthew 27:52-53, "the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." This seems incoherent, since the corpses apparently rose both at the time of the death on the cross and of the Resurrection, but it is narrated in the same matter-of-fact way as the earthquake, the rending of the veil of the temple (two other events that did not attract the attention of any historian), and the reverent comments of the Roman centurion.

    This supposed frequency of resurrection can only undermine the uniqueness of the one by which mankind purchased forgiveness of sins. And there is no cult or religion before or since, from Osiris to vampirism to voodoo, that does not rely on some innate belief in the "undead." To this day, Christians disagree as to whether the day of judgment will give you back the old wreck of a body that has already died on you, or will reequip you in some other form. For now, and on a review even of the claims made by the faithful, one can say that resurrection would not prove the truth of the dead man's doctrine, nor his paternity, nor the probability of still another return in fleshly or recognizable form. Yet again, also, too much is being "proved." The action of a man who volunteers to die for his fellow creatures is universally regarded as noble. The extra claim not to have "really" died makes the whole sacrifice tricky and meretricious. (Thus, those who say "Christ died for my sins," when he did not really "die" at all, are making a statement that is false in its own terms.) Having no reliable or consistent witnesses, in anything like the time period needed to certify such an extraordinary claim, we are finally entitled to say that we have a right, if not an obligation, to respect ourselves enough to disbelieve the whole thing. That is, unless or until superior evidence is presented, which it has not been. And exceptional claims demand exceptional evidence."

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The problem with Hitchens is that he takes an OPINION and makes it out to be fact, even more so HIS opinion.

    For example:

    (One of Professor Barton Ehrman's more astonishing findings is that the account of Jesus's resurrection in the Gospel of Mark was only added many years later.)

    One doubts that Bart was THAT shcoked since that was old news for him and so many of his contemporaries since it had been discussed way before he had even been born.

  • Soldier77
    Soldier77

    Part of being a con artist is to place a little bit of doubt a little bit of wariness into the job so that it doesn't seem too good to be true. In the end though, it's still a con. Just sayin, a smart person that wanted to pull off a hoax as big as this would want to have some inconsistencies in the story.

    To take a quote from Terry Goodkind: "People are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool."

  • Nickolas
    Nickolas

    Another problem with Hitchens is his arrogance, but he still puts forward an intellectually stimulating argument.

    A little off topic, but not too much - with respect to the gospel accounts of the life of Jesus. I have read the bible a few times but I am no biblical scholar so depend upon the research of others for my information (on which, like Hitchens, I form opinions). I was under the impression from others that the gospel of Mark was the first to be written, that his reference to the destruction of the temple in Jersusalem effectively dates his work post 70 AD. Not so, claims my Witness wife. She says the gospel of (can't recall, either Matthew or Luke) was written around 44 AD. Does anyone have chronological references?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Some believe that Matthews MAY have been the first Gospel put into words, truths is we don't know.

    The Epistles of Paul are, generally, claimed to be the first examples of early Christian writing, his first letter to the Thessolonians being the first letter we have of his.

    Most tend to have this view but it is NOT with some debate:

    30-60Passion Narrative
    40-80Lost Sayings Gospel Q
    50-601 Thessalonians
    50-60Philippians
    50-60Galatians
    50-601 Corinthians
    50-602 Corinthians
    50-60Romans
    50-60Philemon
    50-80Colossians
    50-90Signs Gospel
    50-95Book of Hebrews
    50-120Didache
    50-140Gospel of Thomas
    50-140Oxyrhynchus 1224 Gospel
    50-200Sophia of Jesus Christ
    65-80Gospel of Mark
    70-100Epistle of James
    70-120Egerton Gospel
    70-160Gospel of Peter
    70-160Secret Mark
    70-200Fayyum Fragment
    70-200Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs
    73-200Mara Bar Serapion
    80-1002 Thessalonians
    80-100Ephesians
    80-100Gospel of Matthew
    80-1101 Peter
    80-120Epistle of Barnabas
    80-130Gospel of Luke
    80-130Acts of the Apostles
    80-1401 Clement
    80-150Gospel of the Egyptians
    80-150Gospel of the Hebrews
    80-250Christian Sibyllines
    90-95Apocalypse of John
    90-120Gospel of John
    90-1201 John
    90-1202 John
    90-1203 John
    90-120Epistle of Jude
  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Soldier77,

    Yes, most people have in their mind, the facts about many things that are not facts at all, but opinions put there by people that THEY view with some authority.

    Many people still think that relgion killed more people than the wars of the 20th century, that the inquisition killed millions of people, etc, etc.

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