by Yizuman 226 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ah, I see what you mean.
Although in the greek it goes:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Jud&c=1&t=KJV&q=jude#conc/7
It doesn't seem to translate the same as "undergoing" BUT it can be used that way: the root word hypecho :
1) to hold under, to put under, place underneath
2) metaph. to sustain, undergo
a) suffer punishment
I have never been a huge fan of Revelation and it is NOT because of the typical reason many think, it is because Revelation is far too symbolic to be used in a literal way.
It is full of symbolisims to a point where it is virtually impossible to decide what is figuritive and what is literal and what is metaphore and so forth.
I'll watch those, Stephen, thanks, but I need some time to do it on my own. Both kids home today.
As for Sodom and Gomorah, if they serve as an example, then eternal fire would mean eternal and complete destruction, would it not? Not ongoing punishment, except that they are always going to be dead?
tammy
FALSE PROPHET BOB JONES
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Bob Jones - a Tail of a Prophet
(from http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain52.htm
Bob Jones first became known by being part of the Kansas city prophets back in the 1980’s. During this time period there was a group called Grace Ministries' ministerial team which consisted of Paul Cain, Bob Jones, John Paul Jackson, David Parker, Jim Goll, Francis Frangipane and Mike Bickle that were of the former the Kansas City Fellowship (that became the Metro Vineyard of Kansas City).
Nearly everyone one of these men are separately or collectively involved in the “Latter Rain” false revivals that have taken place. Paul Cain, Mike Bickle (and others) are friends to his ministry and were involved in the prophetic movement that entered the Vineyard church under John Wimber and are now part of the new apostolic reformation of Peter Wagner who was friends with Wimber.
Many that run in prophetic circles have respect for Jones, others Have a DIFFERENT OPINION and consider Jones a blatant false teacher/prophet that needs to be avoided. Jones has not changed his perspective in over 20 years, he continues to influence many. He has been a major influence behind the new revival through Todd Bentley, a Toronto style copy.
Bob Jones’ spiritual experiences are extraordinary to say the least. They consist of “Voices,” “angels,” and “translations to heaven” which give him revelations that are not only contrary to Scripture but are easily categorized as of the New Age variety of spirituality. Jones is whom Todd Bentley looks to as a senior prophet and mentor.
Mike Bickle a close friend of Jones relates the degree of supernatural visitation Bob Jones received nightly: “You know, I'm going to tell you something about Bob. Ever since that time in '74 when he was filled with the Holy Spirit he began to see the technicolor visions and the Lord began to visit him. Since that time he has seen many, many times, five, ten visions and dreams a night. And when I first met him, I couldn't hardly comprehend that. I said, “Five or ten a night!” He said, “Oh, yes, all the time. Sometimes more, sometimes three or four” (Mike Bickle, Visions and Revelations, 1988)
Mike Bickle explains the level of spiritual warfare Jones often experiences (Vineyard in Anaheim, CA in 1989): “Bob Jones has come to me several times after ministry. . . you may not believe this, but it's true, where. . . he's... went to bed at night and woke up the next morning with a big red streak across his face or a big cut, gash on his arm. He’d say, 'They got me last night'. He was at warfare in the realm of trances and visions and there was marks left on his body.” (Discernment newsletter vol.1. 4 1990)
If you have marks on your body from sleeping and entering demonic warfare during that time you have some very serious spiritual problems.
Bob Jones claims that when he was nine years old living in Arkansas, an angel carrying a “great trumpet” came riding down from the sky on a white horse and stopped before him in the middle of a dirt road. Four years later, at age thirteen, he claims he was escorted to the throne room of God in heaven (like Cerullo and others). Mike Bickle asked him in a dialogue “You say that you saw the throne room?” “. . . what did it look like?” Jones- “It looked like gold and it looked like light and it was a light not like the light you see here which is artificial,” he responded, adding that the light, the glory of the Lord, frightened him. There was a “guide,” that he identified as “the angel of the Lord” who protected him from danger by standing between him and the throne by filtering the rays from God as if the angel was “like red sunglasses.” He said that he later understood that this was God's way of calling and commissioning him for their new important earth-changing work that could go out from America's Midwest. It is this story that we will focus on at the outset of this article.
Jones relates his concern about the rise of abortion and homosexuality, and a conversation he had with a devil: “He told me the next time that I prophesied and told anybody about it, he would kill me. He said, 'If you knock that off we'll move back into all the signs and wonders you want to. You can heal people and you can prophesy day and night if you want to, if you leave these two subjects alone” (Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, 1988, found in Vengeance is Ours by Al Dager).
What? The devils will move Jones back into signs and wonders if he will avoid these subject matters! If this is accurate, (and there is not reason for him to say this unless it is), then the signs and wonders manifested by Jones and other prophets may not be from God at all. It is devils according to his own experience? I don’t think I’m changing his words by stating an observation- since he is still living and so many signs and wonders occur at the meetings, we are left to assume he took the deal that allowed the devils to move quite freely.
This experience he had in August of 1975 Jones claims he had a near-death experience that was caused by a severe, painful nosebleed and found himself in heaven. Jones said: “... all of a sudden, the pain was gone. And I was in a dark place and I looked around and I could see that I was in a cave and I looked down there and then my thoughts were, “Oh, Lord, did I get my robe clean? Did I have enough time?” And there was a man that walked beside me and he said, “You can look now, Bob, and see” and I looked down and my robe was like crystal light” (Mike Bickle with Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, transcript, series of five tapes from the fall of 1988.)
Jones said, “He then saw Jesus in the form of a light who would grab and kiss” men and women of different ages and then make them disappear by absorbing them into his body! “It was like two big ole doors right here in his heart and it'd be just that, and they was gone.” “… He then saw people that Jesus didn't want who were on “an elevator and an escalator” to hell which was like “a cold storage place.” Jesus then commissioned him to touch the leaders in a new last days church so that he could absorb “a billion souls unto myself in the last day,” Jones said. (Mike Bickle with Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, transcript, series of five tapes from the fall of 1988.)
Bickle later related that during his trip to heaven Jesus commissioned him to be one of God's new generals to lead his end time army. Surely if Jones is one of the churches new general’s we will be led to defeat.
What kind of Jesus is this that Jones presents to the church? Who kisses men and absorbs people
More recently on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MRJ3wA5neU (approx. 4:00 into the video) we find Jones telling us the the same story - abortion would increase, homosexuality would increase and aids would be incurable and there would be an epidemic of drugs (not anything that someone who watches the culture could not predict). He then speaks of the day Aug. 8, 1975- the same story quoted above, but it is told a bit differently, minus some important details he shared in 1988. “A demon appeared to me and said if you ever share that prophesy again I’ll kill you.” And so I told him I don’t belong to you anymore, I belong to the lord and I’m not afraid of you, you have no, uh, no uh, place to touch me, well he did that day and I went to the Lord in death andI stood in a line and as I looked to my left there were a lot of people on like a roller and like in a supermarket where they were rolling past and there were a huge number of people on that line. And I was on a line where there weren’t very many and we were walking and… when I went beyond this life I went into a cave and I looked out the cave and saw a man down there at the cave entrance and he was white light, but there was a whiter light than that white light holding hands out to me and my first thought was did I die clean, was my robe spotted cause I come out of such deep skin and I was concerned to see if I was clean and there was a man that stood alongside of me I never been able to see his face, he’s the paracletos, the Holy Spirit.. he spoke to me and said look now you can see-I looked and my robe was white.” The Holy Spirit is walking with Jones but not anyone else?Jones become confident of his standing before the lord – that he did all he was supposed to do, as this line approached Him he looked to left and saw men wrapped in dollar bills, men on the inside of a whiskey bottle. Men that looked like drugs because that was the god they served on earth “In hell you will serve the god that you served on earth.”
He then explains how there was a large black woman in line with a 100 angels surrounding her and he asked the faceless man, calling him Lord what it was about, he explains how she did great things for her people with the help of the angels. “as she drew close to him he looked out and said did you learn to love and she said yes lord she threw her arms and he just put her arms around her and kissed her right on the lips and just pulled her in”… and the rest of this is even more out of context from the Bible that I refuse to write about such nonsense. This man is not right! Jones is claiming to have actually died and was at the judgment, his judgment. But he is back on earth!
Well, you are free to believe what you want, but I refuse to believe this mans fantasy tales that are unbiblical to the MAX. Is this Jesus the same one in the Bible?
Occult type Influences seem to common with Jones. There are many reports of phenomena similar to the kind Jones describe found in occultism: heat in one's hands when the spirit of healing comes over them; touching someone to feel the same pain in order to diagnose sickness; predicting future events concerning famous personalities. None of these are recorded in Scripture but they do manifest themselves among those in the New Age/ Occult.
Jones explains to us that his healing power came when he was struck by lightning:
“It was about 76. A bolt of lightning. I was inside I didn't have my wires grounded in the basement down there, and I grabbed ahold of the refrigerator, and lightning hit the wires outside, and a great blue flame came in. And a ball of fire danced all over that basement, and didn't hurt me. But from that time forth my hands worked funny. And a lot of people have had a lot of good laughs about it. But a lot of people have got healed by it, too. And miracles and everything else, and got anointed by it. Anytime God is going to start a fire, he starts it with lightning. And you can take a little of that fire and impart it wherever it is needed. And it will start a God's fire” ( Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, 1988.)
The color blue can also mean one is not getting enough oxygen. Certainly Jones has not received enough correct Bible teaching to recognize there are other influences going on his life. Maybe Jones can point to the examples in Scripture where God used lightning for a fire. It sounds more like the Greek myths to me. The only fire I see started like this is what Jesus described - when Satan fell as lightning.
Supernatural experiences are an every day and night occurrence to Mr. Jones, and there is no end to how flamboyant the stories can be. Jones believes a spirit named Dominus, is Jesus. Bickle and Jones relate the story of an angel revealing that God would appear to Bickle and his brother in law and associate pastor Bob Scott in the form of another person named “Don” through a vision or dream to confirm Jones’ ministry.
Bickle said the vision eventually took place, Jones states “You guys are never going to learn the language of the Spirit, are you?... When they asked Jones why Don appeared and not Jesus, Jones answered, “Jesus appears in thousands of different faces to portray something.” Bickle: “He was trying to say, 'I'm your friend, I am your familiar friend and I'm going to show you all things so you can move in the power of the Spirit'” (Mike Bickle with Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, transcript, series of five tapes from the fall of 1988)
These type of descriptions and non- conformity to the Bibles Jesus certainly raises the suspicion of a another Jesus, or spirit at work. If he is not the same then how can we know we are encountering the authentic one? This is like people having visions of Jesus and everyone describes something different, not to worry, they are all Him.
We find out who Bob Jones' White Talking Horse is and whom the angel of the Lord is. According to
Bob Jones when he was 13- “The first time I ever seen the white horse was when an angel called Gabriel was riding. I saw him a couple of times in the '70's, I didn't understand what it meant, I would just see the white horse...(Mike Bickle interjects) “The white horse always speaks in Bob's visions...In his vision it speaks of the corporate purpose that God is bringing to pass...” (ibid. Visions and Revelations.)
I say naaaay to this story, we have yet to see a talking horse in Scripture but we have see a donkey speak rebuke to its rider, Balaam who was the prophet for hire. Whatever is communicating to Jones has some hair raising tails to tell. And the Lord spoke and said, “Bob, the white horse is coming and that will be the Christian group that I'm going to use. Incorruptible flesh will they have, and the lightning in their hands will be the hiding place of their power” (Bob Jones, tape, Visions and Revelations, 1988).
Jones statements are not only unbiblical but cryptic except to the initiated. Jones has been found to need a translator for his speaking even though it is in English because of his incoherence in communication (one translator for Jones is Paul Keith Davis of White Dove ministry). I watched one interview on TV where the “translator” was trying to salvage what appeared to be the ramblings of a man that was not coherent in his speech and had to reinterpret nearly everything said.
Many who are into the visions of Jones also have seen the white horse who represents a sovereign move of the Spirit of truth and power. This is hardly the case as they use Revelation 19:10-11 as a proof text. This white horse is to bring to pass the former moves of God that took place overtime. There visions can mean anything they want as they use allegorical interpretations for their visions, as comets and floods all have an accompanying spiritual meaning that makes sense only to the initiate.
The MIRACLES of Joel’s Army
Bob Jones, speaks about the Army that Paul Cain taught, “Joel’s Army”:
“I went and I seen the Lord, and it was like He was looking at little yellow things—little round, yellow things like a spirit of God itself. [!] And there were billions of them. And it was like Him and. all the angels were looking through these and every once in awhile they'd say, “Hey, here's an end-time one; get it down here on the end. Here's another good one.”
I said, “What are you doing?”
He said, “Oh, we're collecting those who are foreknown and predestinated for the end-times, for you see, they'll be the best of all the seed that's ever been. And we're looking through the seeds and this'll be your grandkids. This will be the end generation that is foreknown and predestinated to inherit all things. And these will be like grandchildren to you—even those that you minister to won't be this generation; their children will be.
“You are to write into their minds, as they write into the children's minds. You're to bring them to a place to allow My Spirit to rule in their life where they can begin to set the Church on the proper foundations, as they will. They'll birth the Church, but their children will attain levels of the Holy Spirit that they will not.
Although their parents will reign over them and be the leaders of the last-day church, their children will possess the Spirit without measure. For they are the best of all the generations that have ever been upon the face of the earth. And the best of all generations are those elected seeds that will glorify Christ in the last days.
“That's the purpose so that Jesus in the last days has the seeds that will glorify Him above any generation that has ever been upon the face of the earth. They will move into things of the supernatural that no one has ever moved in before. Every miracle, sign and wonder that has ever been in the Bible, they'll move in it consistently. They'll move in the power that Christ did. Every sign and wonder that's ever been will be many times in the last days. They themselves; will be that generation that's raised up to put death itself underneath their feet and to glorify Christ in every way.
“And the Church that is raising up in the government will be the head and the covering for them. So that that glorious Church might be revealed in the last days because the Lord Jesus is worthy to be lifted up by a Church that has reached the full maturity of the God-man!” (Bob Jones, tape, Visions and Revelations, 1988.)
This is right out of the Latter Rain/manifest sons of God manual. Now we have a church out of a church with new leadership to finally have us on the right foundation. So the church has not been built on it and those who rule in it will have defeated death and become God-men. Wow that something the Bible teaches us, except I can’t seem to find the verse, but it must be there because of Jones revelation from God.
Let me highlight the main problems- “They will move into things of the supernatural that no one hasever moved in before. Every miracle, sign and wonder that has ever been in the Bible – they’ll move in it consistently. Every sign and wonder that's ever been will be many times in the last days. They themselves will … put death itself underneath their feet... a Church that has reached the full maturity of the god-man!
GODMEN, plural! There is only one God man, the God who became man. This is no small error, it should be considered a heresy that changes the nature of God and man.
This where the influence on the new revival is seen with Bentley and others- it is a Latter Rain delusion that targets the youth, if we allow it. This full maturity is what is called the Manifested Sons of God doctrine that came from the Latter Rain Heresy. That certain overcomers become immortal on the earth before Christ even returns. The Bible teaches it the resurrection that makes us immortal. This is all Latter Rain flattery to pump up the churches self esteem which is better identified as dominionism. There is only one seed we need to be concerned about- it is the word of God which we are actually reborn with (1 Pt.1:23) not a physical seed of man. The church was birthed by the Holy Spirit , yet Jones is speaking of a new birth to a new breed of youth that will have power only despots covet for.
Jones even states ... There is a ministry after the five-fold called the ministry of perfection - the Melchisedek Priesthood . . . your children will be moving into the ministries of Perfection . . . coming into that Divine Nature of Jesus Christ” [Bob Jones, transcribed from 1988 tape Interview Bob Jones with Mike Bickle).
Immortalization for a Melchizedek Priesthood? The church is never going to be a Melchizedek Priesthood because this is not God’s intention for the church- Jesus ALONE is the God man, this why the Bible teaches he is the “only begotten Son of God.” The Melchisedek Priesthood has only one priest- that is Jesus Christ and Him alone, for it is an eternal priesthood with Him as its priest forever. The 5 fold ministry is found in Eph.4:11 and there is no priesthood mentioned, it is about equipping the church. It is apparent that what Jones’ teaches is inserting his own ideas into passages to promote his own agenda- Latter Rain.
The Way the NEW Prophets prophesy
It is Jones who tells us that the prophetic movement was started by an angel named Emma who is androgynous and appeared as female. This angel is supposedly at work with freshfires revival meetings. For the first time in history we have a woman angel working inside the church bringing signs to the
A prophecy of Jones that the Broncos won the Super Bowl was a sign, because their quarterback was named Elway, “For my purpose is to get you to listen that I might show you El's Way ... for you see in every thunderstorm in every lightening strike, in every earthquake, in every volcano, I [God] have my way, for I AM ELWAY” (March 8, 1998 Crossroads Hamilton, Ontario).
Like reading words in alphabet soup this prophet can make a spiritual rhyme on a dime. But he just can’t seem to get the accuracy level past first grade prognostics.
“Bob Jones was told that the general level of prophetic revelation in the church was about 65% accurate at this time. Some are only about 10% accurate, a very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85% to 95% accuracy. Prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is a still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry. This is actually grace for the church now, because 100% accuracy in this ministry would bring a level of accountability to the church which she is too immature to bear at this time. It would result in too many Annaniases and Sapphiras” (The Prophetic Ministry” Rick Joyner. Morningstar Prophetic Newsletter. Vol. 3, No. 2, p. 2).
So we are too immature to have prophets be right all the time? Does this make sense or is it more correct that these prophets are not 100% right because they are not speaking for God who is ALWAYS 100% right. God was always right with his prophets in the Old Testament and New Testament, but in their ministry, they are not always right, they are not even half right; they are not as accurate as a skilled psychic.
Mike Bickle is not anymore reassuring: “Now, obviously, probably about 80% of what's in the Body of Christ that's called prophecy is fleshiness. And so we're in a day when we're in such an immature stage of this. So much of what is called prophecy is not truly prophecy. So we realize that; so what's our reaction to that? We don't throw out the baby with the bath water. We say, "Lord, we don't throw out prophecy. We ask You to mature it." We don't take it as serious in the early days as we will in the days to come” (Media Spotlight- THE RESTORATION OF APOSTLES AND PROPHETS AND THE KANSAS CITY-- VINEYARD CONNECTION by Albert James Dager)
So according to their end time prophetic army they have a base 10-20% accuracy level. Not to be concerned, the more practice they have inside the church the better they will get at it.
Isa 9:15: “The ancient and honourable, he is the head; and the prophet that teacheth lies, he is the tail.”
Thus, the tales these prophets speak of from their own imagination are called tails by God.The Church has accepted the teaching of prophets that are not speaking the truth. They are listening to tails.
Jesus said to those who exercise power as a group of prophets in the last days are in grave jeopardy “Many will say to me in that day; Lord; Lord HAVE WE NOT PROPHESIED IN THY NAME? And in thy name cast out devils and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me” (Matthew 7:22.23)
Many will say this… not a few. When you hear of a prophets school and prophet meetings, or teaching others how to prophesy or giving personal prophecy that is not accurate all the time, think of this Scripture and what it has to say about this.
Bob Jones and Mike Bickle are two peas in a pod when it comes to non- biblical prophetic experiences and revelation. Jones supposedly could tell Bickle what dreams he was going to have, as well as come to him in his dreams. Because Jones was hit by lightening he developed “Golden Senses,” an ability to feel in his hands and arms sensations that would signal various spiritual realities. Jones claims a gift from God that demonstrates when the people's prayers are being heard by the Father especially in the area of healing:
“I was over there with Jim awhile ago. My hands turned blue, and then they turned purple. And when that happens that means you've got some incense that's gone up. You've got some intercession that's gone up that Papa's saying yes to. There's some prayers that's gone on here that the answer is yes....When you've got this kind of anointing some of you are already entering that secret place of the Most High. You're already bowing down to that altar of incense. Your tears are falling on those coals and they're coming up before Papa. Papa's saying, “Come with more. Believe for more.” Because when my hands turn purple it means you're getting through to the Royalty; you're getting through to the top. It's yea and amen, and that's what He's calling you into: that holy place of divine health. The Holy of Holies which your children are called to enter in can crash that threshold. It's called the place of divine health.... That's what the children are entering into: they'll have the Spirit without measure, they'll walk through walls; they'll be translated—everything that was ever in the Scripture” (Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, 1989, audio tape)
Contrary to Jones’ spiritual elitism all Christians can come boldly before the throne and their prayers are ALWAYS heard and answered if they are ask according to God’s will. Christians do not bow before anything but God
What make this a concern is that Alice Bailey, a spokesperson for the New Age Movement, described violet (or purple) light as a catalyst for bringing about healing:
[There are] four groups of angels that are bands of servers who are pledged to the service of the Christ [the New Age Christ, not Jesus], and their work is to contact man and to teach them along certain lines.... They will give instruction in the effect of colour in the healing of disease and particularly the efficiency of violet light in lessening human ills and in curing those physical plane sicknesses which originate in the etheric body.
A violet flame is able to extinguish illnesses according to New age teaching. “The more you understand the reality and the presence, the more you can accept the presence of these healing violet flame angels, the closer, they will come and the greater their strength and power of that sacred fire wrapped around you” (I Am healing decrees, Saint Germaine press 1976 p.6)
Of course both angels and fire have an important part in the “revivalism” taking place in the church today. Before God’s Spirit is actually poured out in Israel and then to the world there is another spirit that will increase to bring in the false Christ, that will be empower people to do great signs and wonders by neglecting doctrine.
“You’re going to see revelations of our Papa like you’ve never seen before. For men like me the Spirit of Elijah has fallen upon. And the Spirit of Elijah falls upon prophets. That’s all that it means there. {Mal 4:5,6} And one of our prayers is to bring the Spirit of Elijah so we can reveal to you your Papa. And you the children of God will come into that Papa/ son relationship. Now 2000 years ago the Savior was revealed. 100 years ago the Holy Spirit was revealed. {1895} We are getting ready for the last revelation. You find out Who your Daddy is, you find out who you are. You find out what your blood is and what you can do.” Bob Jones 2/95 Vancouver, Canada Vineyard
We already know what this means by Jones’ teachings- that the church will produce little God/men, who are all Melchizedik priests, sounds like the Latter Rain plan. In fact Jones has seen the next 50 years unfold, and Jesus did not come back, instead we get to establish the kingdom on earth.
At the Lakeland service with Todd Bentley, Bob Jones explains the churches future: “What is the Lord doing? I brought a 100 year prophesy for a long time, let’s look at it. The 1950’s reveal the power of God. William Branham, Oral Roberts, AA Allen. The 1960’s reveal the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit invaded the denominations. The 1970’s reveal the great teachers of God and they began to raise up. The 1980’s reveal the prophets of God. The 1990’s reveal the government of God. The 2000 would reveal the glory of God. You haven’t seen anything. Wait till you see the next two years! The 2010 would reveal the faith of God. It’s not have the faith “in” God, it is to have the faith “of” God. And it’s going to be those that have that earring in and hear what God is saying. And what you’ll do, you’ll proclaim it. And you’ll bring it into being.” “The 2020’s reveal the rest of God. To where you can rest from your labors and God will work His work through you in your rest and in your peace. The 2030’s will reveal the family of God. 2040’s will reveal the kingdom of God. 2050’s will reveal the sons and daughters of God. I only saw til 2060 and the church was still here and it wasn’t defeated by any means. It had really grown and looked a lot like Christ. So if you’ve got short range plans, make long range plans” (Bob Joneswith Todd Bentley at the Lakeland Florida revival, 5/13/08 evening service, on God TV.Transcribed by Sandy Warner, www.thequickenedword.com)
Looks like we have our future all mapped out and Jesus has told Jones he is not coming for the church in the next 50 years. Consider what some of the statements mean in relation to the Latter Rain teaching of Jones and associates and to the Bible.
“The Remnant Seed”, a prophecy by Bob Jones at Hamilton, Ontario, March 1998:
“ .And now my government is in place, and in a time of great stress I shall bring forth my next step, for Toronto was a step, Brownsville was another step; My next step will be my glory, and signs like you have never seen before...”.
The trail of the Latter Rain continues to unfold, even though it was rejected in the late 40’s, its acceptance today is by those who are unfamiliar with its past. Yesterday it was Toronto, today we have the freshfire revival in Lakeland, tomorrow it will be somewhere else. How can any of this be attributed to God when Jones is so far removed from understanding the word of God, preaching the word of God and replaces it with new words from his mystical experiences that are not even related to Biblical concepts. I would say that if this is the direction of the church, listening to men like him we
*I want to thank Al Dager whose book I read 18 years ago. It gave me understanding of what has been unfolding over the years. Dager was a pioneer on this subject as he gave a warning of the false prophets that would change the church; the very things we are seeing today. Anyone interested in this subject matter should read “Vengeance is Ours”
Quotes from this article are also referenced from Bob Hunter and Discernment ministries.
from http://www.letusreason.org/Latrain52.htm
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Bob Jones is nothing more than a story teller who attaches Christ’s name to what he is doing. This man uses little or no Scripture so we know He has “no light” in him (Isa. 8:20). Little or no Scripture is ever mentioned. This false prophet can only gain access into the lives of those who are already deluded by their rejection of the LORD and His holy truth (2 Thess. 2:10-12).
LINKS
Prophet Bob Jones Removing Blockages (watch this witchcraft and the generalizations - with no Scripture at all) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpLIdmx2t60
Bob Jones: 3 ft Angel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhBmHrZw6Y4
Bob Jones died- God sent him back from heaven's door- 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MRJ3wA5neU
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Think About It
tec As for Sodom and Gomorah, if they serve as an example, then eternal fire would mean eternal and complete destruction, would it not? Not ongoing punishment, except that they are always going to be dead?
tammy
I think the NIV puts it well.
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
The fire of the second death is eternal as is the punishment. The literalness of the fire is as literal as it was at Sodom and Gomorrah.
Jesus makes it clear many times Matthew 25:46, Mark 9:48, Luke 16:23, Revelation 14:10-12, Revelation 20:10
Annihilationism is just another lie from the pit as taught by the WT.
Blessings,
Stephen
Annihilationism is just another lie from the pit as taught by the WT.
It's merely a UNIQUE interpretation.
George Costanza: "Remember, Jerry, it's not a lie -- if you believe it."
The fire of the second death is eternal as is the punishment. The literalness of the fire is as literal as it was at Sodom and Gomorrah.
Stephen, if the fire is literal, then shouldn't the death that came from it be literal as well? How do we pick and choose what is literal or not in that account?
Tammy
Stephen, if the fire is literal, then shouldn't the death that came from it be literal as well?
Remember, those that go to the lake of fire have their own resurrection bodies.
15 and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.
2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
It is clear from what happens that the resurrection bodies of the unrighteous will be everlasting, just as our own glorified resurrection bodies are to be.
How do we pick and choose what is literal or not in that account?
If something is symbolic then we need to consider what it is symbolising. Certainly, if one decides the lake of fire is just symbolic then the second death is still not an option anyone in their right minds would wish to consider.
Ultimately the Holy Spirit is essential to understand the scriptures. Without Him they do seem like foolishness 1 Corinthians 2:14
Blessings,
Stephen
Tammy
I take the eternal nature of the punishment far more seriously than the literalness of the flame. As I've said many times it may be worse than literal. Just as words are incomplete in the discriptions of the splender of heaven.
The literalness of the fire is as literal as it was at Sodom and Gomorrah.
So where is this literal hell? What is the endless fuel & oxygen source? Where is the combustion smoke vented?
Think About It
