QED
Even God can't escape the Matrix
by gubberningbody 43 Replies latest jw friends
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BurnTheShips
The question isn't about God knowing about his own existence.
Any conscious "person" at least knows they exist.
What is not known, or is even knowable by ANY conscious "person", is the nature of his/her/its own existence.
QED
GB, your argument is based on the premise that God is part of a set (a collection of distinct objects)....the same set that includes humans.
In doing so, you can then rationalize that since God is a member of the same set that includes humans, that human limitations on knowledge are applicable to it.
However, I do not accept this implicit premise. My premise is different.
I do not believe God is part of any set outside itself. It is ontologically unique entirely.
Since God is not part of this set, your argument does not follow for me.
BTS
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AGuest
“This is what [Jehovah] has said, the King of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, [Jehovah] of armies, ‘I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God. And who is there like me? Let him call out, that he may tell it and present it to me..." [Jehovah] is just making an assertion to the ones in his own Matrix. He can never know unless someone were to "... call out, that he may tell it and present it to [him]. "
I must disagree, dear GB (peace to you!). The question is rhetorical. You are forgetting that there were things outside the Matrix... which is what the movie was about: the Matrix itself was an illusion. Since the Most Holy of Israel does not exist the Matrix... which is not real... but outside of it (and thus not "outside of reality" but IN reality), He can and does know that He is the only TRUE God... that all others are false... because they don't exist. Even if there ARE other IN the Matrix (which the movie suggests)... they don't exist. Because the Matrix doesn't exist.
So one can speak of [Jehovah's] omniscience as "knowing all things which are knowable", but the knowledge of "knowing" whether one is or is not living in a Matrix-like situation is something which is simply not "knowable".
I disagree. Your statement assumes that one will never wake up... indeed, that they are asleep. Once one wakes up, however, is awoken... or in the instance one never fell asleep to begin with, suggests otherwise. Particularly when the Matrix was "constructed". By constructed, I mean, when the illusion began/was created.
This is why Jehovah can never really know that he is the "first and the last".
You suggest that He cannot know what came before Him... or will come after Him. If all that is came FROM Him... HE can indeed know that: either such others would have had to already exist when HE came into existence... and thus, have come before Him... or have come into existence at the exact same moment He did... and thus, be there at the same time. Since it was ONLY Him... none before or at the same time... else, they should have ANSWERED when He called out as in Isaiah... He can say He was the first. Since none who might have come BEFORE Him have ANSWERED... nor have any who might have come SINCE Him... He can say that. And since He also knows the "end"... because He knows how such Gods are created (they are not, because He was the first)... and so that none others WILL be (which is how we should know that His Son is not God)... He can also say He is the last.
You are trying to understand the Most Holy One of Israel... with a man's mind. I admire your confidence and attempt, but it won't work. We can barely understand our own minds (sure, we know how they work, the physicality, but we have NO idea what creates the individual and very varied thoughts of each one). And we have only scratched the surface with regards to the minds of certain animals. There is a verse, however, that says "God's thoughts are NOT man's thoughts." And it is true... and what keeps US... in the "Matrix."
OUR minds and thoughts are, for the most part, limited. Very. To and by the physical world we live in. And, unfortunately, primarily because that's how WE want it: we WANT to exist in the Matrix. We want to believe what we want to believe... and, wait for it... regardless of whether it's TRUE or not. And the Matrix is NOT religion (although religion is a part of it). It is ALL that is untrue. The Matrix... is the physical world. The one that says we can't [do the things Morpheus taught Neo he COULD do, if he only moved past his mind].
Does that mean that all that we know, "prove" in this world is untrue. Not as it relates to THIS world, THIS Matrix. BUT... if the Matrix itself is an illusion, however, prove all that we can IN it... it is still untrue.
But it doesn't have to be that way: we can actually get to know not only God... but the TRUTH... and thus, HIS mind. By knowing the Truth, Christ. And HIS thoughts are not like ours, either, but we CAN get to know them... very easily.
Your comments here tell me that you're still in the Matrix... bound. Perhaps the words of my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, will help you see something about that. He is recorded to have said:
"... you will know the truth, and the TRUTH... will set you free."
Free from what? From YOUR mind. YOUR thoughts. And thus, YOUR limitations upon yourself. But how does this release occur? Can you just make up your mind to start thinking another way? To some degree, yes. But you will still be bound, to some extent. His next words, however, make the difference:
"Therefore, if the SON sets you free... you will truly BE free."
So, the problem for most is that they don't GET it that Christ, the Son... is the TRUTH ("I am... the truth")... that sets you free. Know HIM... and you will know GOD... and eventually come to know what God knows. Start... by knowing that YOU... know nothing. At all. Because we really don't. We only know what's inside the Matrix... which, in reality, doesn't exist.
Neither God nor Truth are abstactions, dear one. THEY... are the reality.
I bid you peace... and truly, ears to hear when the Spirit [of the TRUTH] and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... free!"
A slave of Christ,
SA
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gubberningbody
SD, I'm not including God in the set of humans, I'm including him in the set of persons which exist.
Existence comes with boundary conditions.
The boundary conditions of existence mean that any person with the properties of existence can never know things which are not bound within that domain.
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gubberningbody
Aguest...to give you some credit, I'd have to say that it certainly is possible to come to know God in the limited sense in which you define such knowledge, however the boundary conditions of existence force one into at best an agnostic position with regard to any knowledge of possible knowledge of what knowledge any being can know.
This is so whether the person is a human, or "God".
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BurnTheShips
The boundary conditions of existence mean that any person with the properties of existence can never know things which are not bound within that domain.
But then you have defeated your own line of argumentation.
If things that exist can only know about things that exist, that means that you can only never know about things which don't exist.
But things that don't exist....don't exist.
So you have disproven your own argument.
BTS
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Ri
The Matrix is a Movie written by someone with a great imagination
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AGuest
Aguest...to give you some credit,
That you give me ANY credit, dear GB (peace to you!)... minute though it may be... and do so kindly and without the usual words of contention... is sufficient for me. Thank you and, again, peace to you, dear one!
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
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The Oracle
please do not proclaim yourself to be a slave of christ.
that makes you a crazy person.
sorry for being blunt, but I do believe this to be true.
However, you are probably a very nice person (most Christians are fairly nice) and I don't want to hurt your feelings....however....since I have the freedom to speak my mind and I am completely done with dishonesty and falsehoods I have to say what needs to be said.
I say the same thing to those of the islam faith who take it to an extreme.
People of the planet earth - wake up and smell the roses, drink the coffee and give your head a shake.... we are no longer an ancient society clinging to superstitions invented by primitive early man that have passed down from generation to generation. We have grown up. We have evolved. Sadly, not enough it would seem...not enough.... I wish I was born one hundred years from now...too many neandarthals still in our midst. ** sigh**
The Oracle
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AGuest
please do not proclaim yourself to be a slave of christ.
To say otherwise would make me a liar, dear Oracle (peace to you!).
that makes you a crazy person.
Okay, I can live with that. I can't live with being a liar.
sorry for being blunt, but I do believe this to be true.
You're entitled to your opinion... and no worries - I wasn't offended, not at all.
However, you are probably a very nice person (most Christians are fairly nice)
I am not nice. To say that I am would be another lie. I can BE nice... but I honestly have to work at it.
and I don't want to hurt your feelings....
You didn't. Truly. I respect your honesty. I don't agree with you that professing to be a slave of Christ makes me crazy (although, taking the guff I get because of it sometimes makes me crazy), but I get why YOU believe that...
however....since I have the freedom to speak my mind and I am completely done with dishonesty and falsehoods I have to say what needs to be said.
Well, now, I dunno. I totally understand that this is how you feel and what you think. That it NEEDS to be said... I am not so sure. I have learned that while it is true that one should endeavor to always speak the truth, I have also learned that it is not always necessary to speak. Even if what is to be said is the truth. For example, a few months ago a relative expressed her utter chagrin when another relative informed us all that they were moving to the east coast. The relative didn't want to say anything because they KNEW this relative would personalize it and make it about her. And she did. She went into the vapors and began an all out, "What?? How can you do that to ME? What about ME?" tirade. The relative who was moving was embarassed, almost devasted. Me, who had had at least one glass of Merlot... maybe two... finally told the wailing relative to cut it out, give it a rest. Because THAT really NEEDED to be said and no one else was gonna say it.
Her response? "What do you mean? I have a RIGHT to say how I feel, don't I? It's how I FEEL!" Nevermind this is a woman over 50 - I would think such a one would know better. But... nope. So, I responded, "No, you don't. You DON'T have a right to say what you feel if there's no REASON to do so... and you're going to hurt someone else by doing so."
Of course, she didn't appreciate that. But... she calmed down, got off the other's relative's back, and let it go. For the moment, at least. I am SURE that was not the end of it.
My point? If you truly believe that what you said here is what you NEEDED to say... then so be it. On the other hand, if it didn't, then perhaps ypu shouldn't have. Personally, I would say to you that I have been accused of being crazy for saying what I do on more occasions over the past 9+ years than I can count, so it probably didn't really NEED to be said: I am well aware that there are some who believe that. I don't believe it's true... I think I am perfectly sane... more than a lot of others, in fact. But if you needed to say it... for YOU... then we're golden: because, again, I took no offense.
I say the same thing to those of the islam faith who take it to an extreme.
Interesting. And may I ask: what do THEY say to you, in return?
Peace to you, dear Oracle. Truly.
A slave of Christ (sorry, but if you can't handle that you're probably gonna have to cover your ears... ummmmm... eyes),
SA