If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?

by smiddy 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  ProdigalSon

  It's impossible for God to reveal himself, because he is already revealed in everything. Not one atom could keep existing without God.

  If we're looking for more tangible 3-dimensional proof, we should start praying to the UFO's.

  "Seeing" the source of all things happens through the third eye, the pineal gland chakra. The major religions teach this esoterically, from the Hindu red dot to the Catholic Ash Wednesday...

  "Hence Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, because, to quote him, "I have seen God face to face and yet my soul was delivered." ~Genesis 32:30.

  Peniel (Hebrew) = "Face of God". It's right in the NWT's footnote!

  The truth is in the Bible if you look close enough. These stories are not meant to be taken literally.

  ~PS
• 

  MarcusScriptus

  Interesting comments, ProdigalSon.

  But are those points enough to make an informed decision either way?

  For example, what if someone doesn't have the Bible? It may not be available in their language still. How can they examine the Bible "close enough" to find the truth of God?

  Also, does coming to believe in revelation as the Hindus believe the same as revelation as viewed in Catholicism? I know it isn't the same for Islam. What you offered would not apply in that instance or for other theistic systems.

  And just because atoms exist doesn't equate philosophically or scientifically that the Judeo/God concept is the Origin and the Keeper of the Atom. The atoms in my Chef Boyardee can stay put because of the can with the label of that chef on it, but I ain't worshipping Chef Boyardee. And it's got his actual name on it, unlike the atom!

  These points might reinforce the faith of a believer, but they can be very ineffective with someone who does not have the luxury of your vantage point. What happens then?
• 

  ProdigalSon

  I think I would have to ask the question, what exactly is the "informed decision"? What are we deciding? If we're going to believe in a God or not or what his name is? What difference would it make? What difference has it ever made, except to divide people and cause them to judge others?

  The question itself is based on the false idea that God is outside of us, and that there will come a day of "judgement". As long as someone believes that, there is nothing to make any informed decision about. Instead of going out and changing the world, they wait for whoever put us here to save it. Their life is simply that of a prisoner doing time, hoping for an early parole for good behavior.

  The problem is that the real knowledge of why we're here and how things work has been suppressed by those who wish to keep all the wealth and power to themselves. What we need is to have them exposed. That will take Divine Intervention, but not in the way we would expect. There is no one single entity called "God" who is going to reveal himself. The Absolute, the "Father" that Jesus spoke of, is pure love and light from which all the energy in the Multiverses emanates. The various dimensions unfold from the "top" or the Source. In order to grasp this, we have to think outside the 3D box we're in, and view our present perceptible "reality" as just a low channel on the TV. There are higher channels, but we have to evolve into them.

  ~PS
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  MarcusScriptus

  My argument is but limited to how the Watchtower standards sometimes remain with ex-Witnesses and limit our ability to make informed decisions in matters of personal conviction. I am not speaking of concepts outside the Watchtower, especially not ones that do not limit a person to make an honest search and thus come to an informed and sound conclusion.

  The theology of Jehovah's Witnesses limits our ability to make such informed decisions on the basis that their theology itself is limited. While to a larger extent other views may be subject to the points I've raised, they are not at issue. Neither at issue is the conclusion one comes to in the end as long as it is truly an informed one, and not limited by Watchtower concepts.
• 

  Terry

  There is no better proof of No Interested Personal God than this: NO CONTACT directly AND observably by the entire human race in our own day and time.

  We are left with the shoddy and fallible leftover opinions and interpretations of hundreds of religious myths.

  On THIS we are to base our most deeply held life and death values???

  Anybody who can honestly defend the NO-SHOW by a living, caring God is intellectually dishonest and cognitively dissonant.

  If YOU had children in peril who didn't really know you I hardly think you'd leave them prey to arbitrary speculations based on a thousand stories, claims, counterfactual assertions and such.

  You want proof of God? The only proof you are going to get in your lifetime is your own imagination and stubborness.

  A God who plays games with a dying species; who silently lurks in the invisible subconscious and who destroys the luckless foiled guess with extinction is more Monster of the ID than superhero.
• 

  MarcusScriptus

  Terry,

  I don’t question the wisdom and the value of the convictions of an atheist nor their intelligence or innate value as a human being.

  But when ad hominem is used in an argument against any position, I then tend to side with the belief that the person has really not changed from the time they were a Jehovah’s Witness. They have just substituted Jehovah for no-Jehovah, and they still enjoy the feeling triumphalism supplies, of being “right” while others are “wrong.” They feel the same need to have some "gospel" to offer and to "bring down the established" whatever. They've just changed brands but kept the ego.

  Ad hominem, or attacking the person who has a conviction instead of the convictions themselves—i.e., the Watchtower habit of saying things like: “Anyone who is truly honest with themselves…” or “Only a person in their right mind…” or “Only those who really love truth…”, etc.—is a Watchtower-learned habit (suggesting that those who don't hold their view are not truly honest, are not in their right mind, or don't really love truth).

  I don’t believe a person can be instantaneous labeled as “intellectually dishonest and cognitively dissonant” because they believe in God. The convictions might be called “dishonest”, but are the people themselves truly and logically “cognitively dissonant”?

  Apologetics uses reason to defend one’s stand. One of the rules of apologetics is that the use of ad hominem instantly makes for fallacy of logic. What one is doing is offering fallacious rhetoric in place of facts.

  The Witnesses commonly use this technique. Make the person into someone stupid or intellectually dishonest for believing something and this makes the subject distasteful as well. This doesn’t prove anything, however, except that the person offering the argument is not using logic.

  Regardless of whether one believe in God or not, it does not automatically take away from their intrinsic value and mental capacity as a human being.

  For more information on the use of common fallacies in argument that the Watchtower and others use, see the popular “Baloney Detection Kit”: http://www.xenu.net/archive/baloney_detection.html
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  AGuest

  You have it backward, dear Smiddy (peace to you!). The Most Holy One of Israel is not obligated to reveal Himself to us. Not at all. Indeed, we are not worthy of such a revelation. We are unclean. Thus, WE are the ones obligated... to LOOK for Him. And He is not afar off. Be that as it may, He is merciful and so He DID reveal Himself to us, to the extent the law of "holiness" allows: by sending His Son... who is the exact IMAGE of the Most Holy One of Israel, and a representation of His very being. To see God, then, we must LOOK... at Christ, the mirror.

  How do we do that? With faith... born out in love, first. Then truth. Mercy. Peace. Kindness... and these like these. We find God when we love God. We can't love Him if we don't even believe He exists. If we hate Him, despise Him, rebuke Him... then there is no way that we can see Him. It is OUR lack of faith... borne out in our lack of LOVE... that "hides" Him from us.

  We are so willing to accept the unrighteous acts of the "god" of the OT... even though we have PROOF of what God "looks" like... in Christ. We want to have it both way, though: the exacting, harsh god of the OT... yet the loving, merciful "God" of the NT. But how can that be? Would that not be a house "divided"? If, however, you look at the God of the OT... by looking at CHRIST... you will see where the stylus of the scribes was true... and where it is false. As you do, you begin to "see" God, in His true form.

  For example, as Paul (?) wrote:

  "Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."

  This "freedom" allows one to transcend the flesh and its empirical restrictions so as to see what is beyond that which can be seen, heard, felt, smelled, or tasted by the body of flesh [with its blood]. It SURPASSES, so that one can realize that which transcends what we can experience with the flesh. And realize things that can be perceived by other means. That veil, however, meaning the thing that results from not just reading but accepting as valid (either technically or literally) "Moses"... covers our hearts... so that Christ, the TRUE Light... cannot shine through. We can REMOVE it, however, by turning to HIM. In doing so, you start your journey toward freedom:

  "And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit."

  Because, it is not the Bible that leads us into all truth; indeed, the Bible itself is not all truth, does not contain all truth. And much of what it contains is NOT truth.

  It is the HOLY SPIRIT, however, Christ, who leads us. Into ALL truth. He is the TRUTH that sets you free... not the Law... not the Bible. Once you KNOW the Truth... that truth will set you free. And that Truth... is Christ. Thus:

  "If the SON sets you free... you will truly BE free."

  Therefore, if you want to see God... you should KISS... THE SON.

  May you all have ears to hear when the Spirit, that Son... and His Bride... says to YOU:

  "Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"

  A slave of Christ, the Holy Spirit,

  SA
• 

  warmasasunned

  dear smiddy these god folk are trying to send you as mad as they are.

  what a croc!!!!

  if my son comes looking for help from me i dont say "im hiding come and find me"

  "but dad where are you"

  "i'll give you some really cryptic clues that you will never be able to solve then you will find me"

  sorry you guys who insist on seeking and searching for god, its so simple he wont answer because he's not there, or we simply don't understand what god is, or what god means.

  why would god play games with people, why do they have to prove anything, its childish idiotic nonsense.
• 

  AGuest

  if my son comes looking for help from me i dont say "im hiding come and find me"... "but dad where are you"... "i'll give you some really cryptic clues that you will never be able to solve then you will find me"

  Wrong scenario, dear WAAS (peace to you!). God's sons are not being hidden from. God has revealed Himself to them... and they see Him. But your scenario is also backward - it was not God who hid from man in the first place... but man who hid himself... and yet still hides... from God.

  Although hidden from the world, true, because the world cannot receive the One whom God SENT... Christ, the Holy Spirit... the Most Holy One of Israel is not hidden from HIS sons. The backward assumption, again, is that all are His sons. All are not. Just because one is man does not make one a child of God. God is a SPIRIT... He is not "adham" (earthling man). Those who see Him, therefore, do so... in spirit, as well.

  I hope this helps and bid you peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Sharpie

  I think we would loose the abilty of free will in a way. Imagine if Jehovah was our actual father. You'll tend to behavior better around your dad then around your school friends, so therefore putting a limit on your "bad" behavior.
  
  So if we know for sure that god is watching us, you wont act as free as you normally do.
  
  Make sense of that. :)