If God truly loved humans...why not reveal himself ? So that they could make an informed decision ?

by smiddy 117 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • warmasasunned
    warmasasunned

    bless you aguest, i appreciate your comments (and so happy that you can take my opinion and not get angry)

    its just all to much for me i suppose the point i'm trying to convey is, why as it all got to be so complicated and difficult

    as smiddy says just show yourself or let us know in no uncertain terms what we should be doing and we can make an informed choice.

    that's just my opinion i don't do all the scriptures i left that behind when i walked away from the jw's, it just drives me up the wall.

    for me it's all just personal opinion, theres no one who can say this is right thats wrong.

    as a father of two children i just can't except that if there is a god he would act this way.

  • MarcusScriptus
    MarcusScriptus

    Warmasaunned,

    It isn’t as easy as looking for proof in the Scriptures. And it might be that we are still looking for things the way we were taught when Witnesses. God is both more complex and much more simple than what we were lead to believe if we were once JWs.

    Take your time in coming to a conclusion. Don’t expect it all to make sense. Remember if there is a God, it’s not a matter of academia but of the heart. Love doesn’t make much sense all the time.

    Also don’t worry if your views change tomorrow from what they are today. And don’t worry if you’re thinking that a God who is there that you just can’t see or believe in (though you are trying or have tried) is going to judge you adversely because you can’t do that right now. That’s neither here nor there with God.

    Be the best you can as a father to those children. Show them what some people don’t think atheists or agnostics or those without a religion can be and offer to others. Prove to your children and family and friends that using your mind, your heart, and not jumping to conclusions one way or the other is not a dead end street.

    If there is a God, and you want to know him, you will in time. Maybe not today or tomorrow, but if you want to you will. After all, the theists often refer to God as the Hound of Heaven who is sometimes chasing us down to play when all we see is a dangerous dog who might hurt us. Often we don’t recognize God until he catches up with us because we don’t realize we are running away from we imagine is a threat.

    And if you don’t ever believe in God in the end, that doesn’t make you some horrible person either.

    And now, for some of you others…

    Why is there an insistence on insulting the convictions of others on this board? Why should people result to calling other people “mad”? We haven’t moved so far from our Witness connections if that is where we still are.

    We prove the Witness right when we do that. Insulting the humanity of others because of their convictions, whether they choose to believe in a deity or not, is never acceptable. Never!

    If I hold to some conviction, be it atheism or not, and it doesn’t make me any better of a person toward others than the judgmental Jehovah’s Witnesses, then I belie any claim of value to my convictions. Who wants to be an atheist, agnostic or whatever I am if it leaves them in the squalor of Watchtower opinions that likewise devalues others whose convictions differ?

    If we are insulting people, regardless of our convictions, then we are not faithful to our convictions or they are not what we claim or think there are at all. We are the worse of hypocrites for our stand against the Watchtower because we just “switched brands” and are still doing the same thing.

    It makes it seem like it’s not the teachings of Jehovah’s Witnesses that is wrong, but the type of people that religion attracts. Perhaps it only appeals to the person who cannot see that they are nothing more than a triumphalist, to someone who cannot make any doctrine or philosophy peacefully work—and not because the belief is incapable of creating such but maybe because it is in the wrong hands.

    If we eat at ourselves and our humanity and the beauty of exercising the freedom of conscience each deserves to express in the way they see fit, why did we leave those Kingdom Halls in the first place? The elders and the Governing Body did all that for us without us having to bother. Why do we keep acting as if we are crying out: "Let us not be outside here where those we hate cannot be insulted and reduced to labels, but let us return to the captivity of Egypt where we can be slaves again to the Russian Roulette ways of never knowing when we might be the next victim to the whims of a society that might officially cut us off because they don’t like the way we think!"?

    Now it is great to offer our opinions, to share what we all learned, and to help people reason their way out of the trap of the Jehovah’s Witness religion. But when we start picking on people and the choices they make once they leave the Watchtower, then it wasn’t the religion that was bad, it was those of us who have to keep acting this way toward others whether we are in a Kingdom Hall or not.

    And if that is the case, then we are all wrong, and someone needs to apologize to the Watchtower for all this. Oy vey, goyim, can't you learn from us Jews and not complain once you cross the Red Sea?

    Whatever I believe in now is the truth. Whatever I believed in then was the truth. And whatever I believe in tomorrow will be the truth, even if each day has me believing something different. Behold, am I the Governing Body or just an ex-Jehovah’s Witness? Taste my fruit, thou shall never know the difference! [Insert triumphalist laughter here.]

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    why as it all got to be so complicated and difficult

    But it isn't, dear WAAS (again, peace to you!). It's quite simple, actually. Elementary, even.

    as smiddy says just show yourself

    He did. Through Christ. Look at that One...

    or let us know in no uncertain terms what we should be doing and we can make an informed choice.

    He did that, too. "This is my son the Beloved... listen to HIM." How do we do that? By doing what that One said. Which includes becoming as a little child. For such ones, this really is simple... elementary, even. It is the "adult" in us that gets in the way. For instance, although most of us here reject the false teachings and misleading of the WTBTS... and so will have sex outside of marriage, celebrate holidays, speak with DF'd ones, look into other faiths/religions, practice other faiths/religions... and more... most of us won't do the ONE thing Christ SAID to do in order to gain everlasting life: eat his flesh and drink his blood.

    We will refute and dispute what they teach. We will stand up and call ourselves staring God down in the eye. BUT... partake of the bread and wine?? Uh-uh, no sirree. Heck, some of us will even commit murder... but we won't partake. Because we have been misled to believe that doing is the "ultimate" sin. Yet, Christ's words were:

    I am the bread of life. Y OUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.”Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” Accordingly [Jesus] said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU , Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.” John 6:48-58

    Now, this is such a SIMPLE command, is it not? Doesn't require us to join anything, give anything, pay anything, listen to any sermon, go out in any field service, place any magazines... carry a stake... have nails driven into our bodies. Nothing. But to take a little bit of bread and small sip of grape juice/wine. And if you read this to a child and told them that "anyone" MEANT anyone, including them... what would he/she do? He or she would eat and drink, wouldn't they? And do so without question, without concern... without hesitation. Because that is what my Lord is SAYING to DO and such young one would LISTEN... and do it.

    But us adults... not so much. No, we have to contemplate, and analyze, and ruminate, and search the scriptures, and review the WT magazines, and discuss it with our BS (no pun intended) Conductor, PO, CO, GB member... or whathaveyou. And afterward, we listen to what such men... WHO WE KNOW ARE FALSE PROPHETS... say to do... and do what THEY say we should (or, rather, NOT do what they say we should not)... instead of listening to Christ. Yet, CHRIST... is the One God said TO listen TO!

    A very simple direction... which most adult JWs and exJWs... can't seem to wrap their heads around.

    God isn't hiding Himself, dear one. Some of us are just not LISTENING to Him.

    Again, I bid you peace and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... FREE!"

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • warmasasunned
    warmasasunned

    marcus scriptus thank you for a balanced response, you dont judge me and i dont judge you either, i can concur with many of your sentiments.

    bless you a guest i admire your faith and conviction.

    but what if you dont accept jesus or the bible, what if i were to belive in the koran, or was a sikh or hindhu etc.

    i admire people of faith (some not all) i wish i could share it but it as to based on solid conviction (personally speaking)

    not based on if buts, maybe this doctrine that doctrine, this date that date

    goodluck to those who choose faith in god

    and to those who like me, choose not accept the view that you have to show faith in such an unreasonable concept, as a god who plays games.

  • superpunk
    superpunk

    Is He to blame for us not listening, or for keeping our children and therefore, our descendants, from listening? Who says He never tried?

    A God who has to "try" to reveal himself - and what's more, fails to do so - is no God at all. The Sun is a much better deity.

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    Anybody who can honestly defend the NO-SHOW by a living, caring God is intellectually dishonest and cognitively dissonant.

    Terry, you forgot when Jesus Christ our Lord became present in 1914.

    Oh, yeah - that was invisible, too - and the only thing that happened in plain sight was a terrible world war.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Let us take Bob and make Bob all powerful and all knowing and make Bob also all loving and a being that does NOT force itself on anyone and wants His creations to come to him of free will and love and desire.

    Now, Bob CAN show himself to his creation and they will, by virtue of him showing himself to be the all powerful and all knowing ( hence all influencing) being, follow Bob and worship Bob and do whatever Bob tells them to do, NOT because they feel itis right or correct but simple because it is Bob telling them to do so.

    But Bob doesn't want that because Bob doesn't want ANYONE doing the right thing because Bob says so, and they will do it because Bob says so because Bob is God. No, Bob wants them to do what is right out of love and understanding for each other and for him.

    But Bob KNOWS that if he reveals himself in all his Bob-liek glory that, that is what they will do, they will do it because they feel they have no other choice since Bob ( the all powerful and all proven to exist God) is telling them.

    SO Bob decides that, if people are going to do what is right out of love and compassion ofr each other and for him, that Bob CAN'T reveal himself and infulence thir decision THAT way, nope, he must reveal himself as "man" and "god" so that they can understand that it is THEIR potential to be that also - Man and God when they are un union BY THEIR OWN CHOICE, with God.

  • tec
    tec

    A God who has to "try" to reveal himself - and what's more, fails to do so - is no God at all. The Sun is a much better deity.

    Okay, lets try it this way. He started out walking with Adam and Eve. That got forgotten (except for what is written). He spoke to Moses, led His people from Egypt (many miracles there), all of which faded into the realm of disbelief - even among the people from that generation. Daniel in the fire - never mind that, it never really happened... etc, etc.

    But He HAS revealed Himself to us through His Son, this last time. We only have to look to the Son to see Him, but here we are, so many people disbelieving that this Son ever existed, never mind that He performed those miracles or rose from the dead.

    We aren't very good at hearing or seeing.

    Tammy

  • superpunk
    superpunk

    Okay, lets try it this way. He started out walking with Adam and Eve. That got forgotten (except for what is written). He spoke to Moses, led His people from Egypt (many miracles there), all of which faded into the realm of disbelief - even among the people from that generation. Daniel in the fire - never mind that, it never really happened... etc, etc.

    But He HAS revealed Himself to us through His Son, this last time. We only have to look to the Son to see Him, but here we are, so many people disbelieving that this Son ever existed, never mind that He performed those miracles or rose from the dead.

    We aren't very good at hearing or seeing

    Let's try that Thomas Paine's way - he says it more eloquently than I could.

    As it is necessary to affix right ideas to words, I will, before I proceed further into the subject, offer some observations on the word 'revelation.' Revelation when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

    No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and, consequently, they are not obliged to believe it.

    It is a contradiction in terms and ideas to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication. After this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner, for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

    ...

    When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.

    None of us are bound to believe ANY of those stories. If they ACTUALLY happened, they ought to be able to happen again in a way that is completely indisputable for any of us, and neither you nor I should share any part of the blame for God's failure in that regard. This God who cannot manage to irrefutably manifest himself to ALL people (as the Sun does) is a piss-poor God - and we can conclude that he is either not real or he is not worthy.

  • Berengaria
    Berengaria

    Every religion living or dead has some form of those fables. Some from long before the bible was written. Why did all the miracles stop at the point that man developed the capacity to understand and communicate? Only ancient man was given the opportunity to have him revealed? That's like pulling a coin out of a toddlers ear, and saying it's magic.

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