Creationist Theme Park: "Ark Encounter"

by leavingwt 91 Replies latest social current

• 

  sir82

  Truthlover,

  I hesitate to speak for LWT, but I think his point was this:

  Such an ark, eve assuming it would ever float in the first place, would be completely ripped apart and sink within hours if not minutes.

  The ark, as described in Genesis, would never work for a day, let alone for a year. and even less so for a boat made with crude stone tools.

  Of course, the Bronze Age goatherders who started the story never had any knowledge of the laws of physics to constrain them, so they could include any details that struck their fancy and not worry about pesky things like "facts".
• 

  truthlover

  Hi Sir 82 -

  Go back to Genesis again and check out Tubal Cain - hundreds of years before Noah -- and another builder has built the Ark in Holland - to spec -

  Are you familiar with log houses?? They have to be watertight and resist rain, storms, etc...

  Huge beams and cross beams, strategically placed to withstand great pressures had to be "manufactured" with the iron tools they would have to do the work... you aren't just thinking of building a house, which has to have retain ing walls, beams,uprights, you are building a place bigger than 3 football fields over years and years of labour... seven people and probably huge land aminals, elephants, etc to bring down the trees, and haul them--- then as the timbers were placed, elephants using a hoist system could raise them to be positioned......

  huge wooden plugs could be used for nails -- or iron spikes, since they had it at that time.. grooved pegs that fit into joint holes to secure huge logs and the list goes on... no small venture

  Josephus writes of the flood account - and also cites other nationalities as verifying this account: Berosus the Chaldean who stated-- "it is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyaeans and that some people carry off bits of bitumen, which they take away and use as amulets. Another historian Hieronymus the Egyptian who worte of the Phoenician Antiquities and Mnaseas make mention of the flood. Another, Nicolaux of Damascus speaks of the flood and the ark..

  Jesus spoke of the flood and the ark -- I guess it comes down to what you want to believe...

  Any carpenters on here today to verify what would be needed for this structure..

  Will check back later..
• 

  Billy the Ex-Bethelite

  Any carpenters on here today to verify what would be needed for this structure..

  Having grown up on a farm and worked in construction at Bethel, the only thing needed to prove the engineering, logistics, genetics, etc. for the Genesis account of the Noachian Flood is credulity. Just ignore all the facts that contradict the legend and you're good to go! Why do you think that Watchtower avoids the subject? They haven't touched the subject of speciation since 1969, at did such a terrible job that they scarcely have addressed the issues since.
• 

  jam

  One question. What did God accomplish by flooding the earth? He wipe out

  99.999% of the animals, 99.999% of the fruit trees and 99.999% of man.

  OK, he wanted A clean slate. I got news for God it did not work. This question

  is for those that beleive in A world flood.
• 

  ziddina

  "Put Creation "Science" to the test, do the experiment, and show the world Noah's Ark is truly possible! ..."

  Glug, glug, glug, glug....

  LOLOLOL!!! XD

  "Truth" lover, you just have no clue...

  If this mythological "flood" occurred during the Bronze Age, then it CANNOT have been global!!! That's why I postulated - STRICTLY for a lightweight debate - that the"ark" was "possibly" "built" during the Stone ages - at least, during THAT time, the occasional release of glacial meltwater COULD have given primitive, superstitious and ignorant sheepherders the idea that the WHOLE WORLD was flooding...

  There is NO geological evidence for a SIMULTANEOUS, WORLD-WIDE flood. Absolutely NONE. It's the ROCKS that speak the REAL truth, here!!!

  Zid
• 

  TD

  Shedding water droplets off of a vertical or sloped surface (i.e. A wall or roof) is very, very different than submersion.

  The hull of a boat below the water line resists water pressure like the walls of a pressurized water pipe do. The larger the displacement, the greater the pressure. In this scenario, a log cabin is no more water tight than a sieve. The tiniest little pin hole causes leakage and we're not talking about the drip, drip of a worn out faucet. We're talking about a tiny stream of water under pressure. (A "rooster tail")

  That's why all boats, regardless of the level of sophistication, leak from seepage and splash. Any boat much larger than a skiff needs a pump to get rid of that water. The Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria, which were tiny ships, were each equipped with hand-cranked bilge pumps. As boats got bigger, the bilge pumps needed to get bigger too. The bilge pumps in clipper ships were powered by donkeys on treadmills. When steam came along, ships grew slightly bigger because the available power for pumping went through the roof, but a limit to the size of any wooden ship was discovered.

  Two factors were involved:

  1. Mass does not increase at the same rate that external dimensions do. If we could wave a magic wand and double the size of a ship, it wouldn't weigh twice as much, it would weigh eight times as much. (2^3) If we quadruple the size of a ship, it wouldn't weight four times as much, it would weigh sixty-four times as much. If we increased the size of a ship eight fold, it would weigh 512 times as much. Mass increases by the cube of the multiplier

  2. While smaller ships can be lifted fairly evenly by a swell if they are pointed into it, the hull of a larger ship is subject to very uneven pressures. When a swell hits the bow of a large ship, the entire ship is lifted by the bow.

  What this means in practical terms is that the amount of pressure in pounds per square inch that a section of the hull will bear when the ship is lifted by the ocean does not increase at the same pace that the external dimensions of ships increase. It increases an at exponentially higher rate. The mass increases while the percentage of the hull bearing transient loads decreases.

  Wood has limits as a structural material, and we have learned the hard way, what those limits are. The size limit for any ship with a wooden hull is right around 300 feet. The Appomattox was 319 feet long. Multiple steam powered pumps ran continuously to keep it afloat. The very first time the hull touched a sand bar, it broke apart and sank. The Rochambeau was about 330 feet long (Not counting the ram) It leaked so badly that it was only taken out in the open ocean once and was finally sold as scrap.
• 

  TD

  Not trying to be the mean kid whole spoiled the fun of Santa, but half-sized replicas towed on metal barges don't count:

  
• 

  ziddina

  Let's tackle a few of the other comments that you made....

  "Zedinna:-- as to Noah having to build with ark with stone tools - check out Gen 4:22 -- Tubal Cain was a worker of every sort of tool both in copper and iron- so they knew forging techniques that would aid in the cutting and forming of trees... Tubal Cain lived hundreds of years before Noah and his sons-the knowledge would be passed on thru the family lines..

  The middle east today is not what was there 6000 years ago - topography and land was totally different.. think of the tall trees of Mamre

  think of Eden being covered with grasses and trees - it covered a large area according to some historians and acheologists, Noah built the ark in that area - as a matter of fact, most of the biblical history came out of that area... reference bible says it was probably gopher wood or cypress- resinous trees that would naturally dispell water as that is what the ark was sealed with... "

  First of all, it's spelled ZID-dina, NOT ZED-dinna....

  Secondly, by your comment, "Tubal Cain was a worker of every sort of tool both in copper and iron- so they knew forging techniques that would aid in the cutting and forming of trees... Tubal Cain lived hundreds of years before Noah and his sons-the knowledge would be passed on thru the family lines",

  That means that this "flood" would have occurred during the BRONZE AGE - the time when the largest Pyramids of Egypt were built, the time when the Island of Crete was home to one of the most advanced civilizations of the Bronze Age - ALL of which did NOT 'disappear' under any supposed "floodwaters" of a mythological "global" flood.

  Thirdly, your comment, "The middle east today is not what was there 6000 years ago ..." is highly inaccurate, even by your own biblical source. Mankind's only BEEN on earth for a TOTAL of 6,000 years, by the biblical timeline, remember??? So, we're NOT talking about the "Middle East" of approximately 6,000 years ago - we're talking about the Middle East of AT LEAST a couple thousand years later, right????

  At which time the Middle East was still FAR MORE ARID than, say, England during the reign of Queen Elizabeth the First, during which time England used much of ITS timber to build a fleet capable of sailing across the Atlantic, remember???? The timber needed for that fleet would probably approximate a portion of the lumber needed for the "ark", and yet England's GREAT forests were largely decimated to build that fleet!!! And the Middle East lacked such deep, thick forested lands during the Bronze Age....

  Now let's discuss this comment, "says it was probably gopher wood or cypress- resinous trees that would naturally dispell water as that is what the ark was sealed with...".

  Ever hear of shipworms??? (Teredo navalis) http://wreckprotect.eu/fileadmin/site_upload/wreck_protect/pdf/shipwormspdfnew.pdf

  Naaaasty little creatures!!! They can gnaw thru wood quickly and thoroughly, and prefer oceanic waters though they can live in waters with lower salinity. The biblical account mentions the use of 'pitch' - and I'll get into the great amount of pitch required to caulk such a massive structure - but even 'pitch' doesn't fully repel the nasty little wood-boring worms. After they've bored sufficiently, the structure collapses....

  The Norsemen were very familiar with the depredations of shipworms, as two of the Norse sagas discuss the effect these wood-borers have on submerged wood - at the waterline and below: "For example, both sagas feature a mariner called Bjarni, who is driven off course on a voyage to Greenland, and whose authority is subsequently called into question; in "Greenlanders" he is Bjarni Herjolfsson, who discovers the American mainland as a result of his mishap, but in "Eric" he is Bjarni Grimolfsson, who is driven into an area infested with shipworms on the way home from Vinland, with the result that his ship sinks. ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland

  Now, think about that. The Norsemen were seasoned SAILORS and SHIPBUILDERS, with FAR MORE EXPERIENCE in sailing and seamanship than those "landlubber" Middle Eastern sheepherders... If the Norse had problems with shipworms, what do you expect would happen to the ark - in an IDEAL environment for shipworms - for over a YEAR....??

  Most wooden ships were EXTREMELY vulnerable to their depredations; that's why ships were regularly put into 'drydock' for scraping [barnacles as well as shipworms...] and re-caulking. I'll get into the stresses upon a conventional ship, constructed with CENTURIES of experience with storms at sea, hurricanes, whirlpools, and how "Noah's 'ark'" would have "measured up" to such stresses, in a bit...

  As for the 'pitch' - let's calculate the square footage of the outside of the "ark"... Let's see.... using the numbers from a Christian website [where else? ], http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html (And for those of you who want a giggle, read that site and their "dormancy" idea, just to give you a sample... XD )

  450 feet long by 45 feet high gives us 20,250 square feet for the long side of the ark, and 75 feet wide by 45 feet high gives us 3,375 square feet for the end. 20,250 + 20,250 + 3,375 + 3,375 = 47,250 square feet for the OUTSIDE of the ark.

  Now, let's use a hardware store calculation for coverage... I'm going to use the calculations for paint, even though the 'pitch' coverage should have been much thicker, and would be much more difficult to work with, since it would have to be kept hot constantly as it was being worked into the cracks in the "hull"...

  I looked up a few paint-store coverage estimates, and the average gallon of paint will cover 350 - 400 square feet. Since we're supposedly dealing with 'pitch' - tar, like they use to seal flat roofs, by the way - let's use the LOWER amount of coverage, though the actual

  Screw that. Let's look up coverage for roofing tar, instead...

  O-kay... Coverage for 400 sq feet takes FIVE gallons of tar or roofing epoxy... Another site states 100 square feet per GALLON... That's getting much closer to the actual coverage needed, though to caulk a WOODEN ship takes far MORE tar...

  And THIS website http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/mediawebserver?66666UuZjcFSLXTtMXfXnXfXEVuQEcuZgVs6EVs6E666666--

  Shows a requirement of 5 gallons for a coverage of 257 square feet, to a depth of only 1/16th of an inch - HARDLY deep enough to protect a large, constantly flexing wooden ship from the stresses that would occur during a "global" flood...

  So, let's use the lowest square footage, here.... 5 gallons to cover 64 square feet to a depth of 1/4 of an inch - STILL very shallow, but for the sake of argument...

  So, now, 47,250 square feet for the OUTSIDE of the ark would require AT LEAST 740 gallons of tar, and that's just for the OUTSIDE of the ark. Remember, the INSIDE of the "ark" was supposedly "fully tarred", too... So, we're probably looking at around 1,500 GALLONS of tar.

  That's about the carrying capacity of a SMALL tank truck - NOT a semi-tractor trailer.

  Keep in mind that that stuff has to be kept HOT HOT HOT - in transport and during application, too!!!

  So, how many gallons of tar can one camel carry at a time??? Because, the sources of tar DIDN'T exist in Israel!! THAT stuff had to be imported from the Babylonian area - one of the major sources for bitumen in the Middle East during "biblical" times.

  Again, keeping in mind that the Israelites were definitely NOT SAILORS - had NO CLUE about sailing, ships and seamanship - why do you think Jonas had to go to FOREIGNERS to sail away????

  Now, let's talk about the construction of the ark. It was basically a large "chest". It lacked a VITAL element of any SEA-WORTHY ship - a KEEL!!! Without a keel, and the supporting ribs, it would have twisted with every wave - and as others before me have posted, it would have wrung itself out of existence within a short time!!

  Think about the fates of some of these super-tankers, which have broken apart in heavy seas, often sinking without even enough time to send off an "S.O.S."... The "Edmund Fitzgerald" comes to mind as one example...

  And from this website: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/07/040721084137.htm comes this comment, "Severe weather has sunk more than 200 supertankers and container ships exceeding 200 metres in length during the last two decades. ..." and the information regarding "killer" waves with heights varying from 60 to 100+ feet - or more... And just how big do you think the waves got, during that "global" flood???

  Their mythology about the "ark" is strictly THAT - MYTHology.

  Oh, and your comment, "resinous trees that would naturally dispell water as that is what the ark was sealed with..." That's "dispel", by the way, not "dispell" - and the correct term would be either "repel" - as in, to repel the effect of the water from soaking into and waterlogging the wood, or "displace" - as in, the water would be "displaced" by the weight of the 'ark' and its [hopefully] water-repellent hull...

  And resinous trees would need some waterproofing assistance, or else the shipworms would bore into them, as I mentioned above...

  LOTS of factual indications that the "Noah's Ark" story in the bible is a myth...

  Zid
• 

  TD

  Zid

  Now, let's talk about the construction of the ark. It was basically a large "chest". It lacked a VITAL element of any SEA-WORTHY ship - a KEEL!!!

  Yeah, .....Aside from JW's most who take the flood account literally recognize that a square chest would have been impossible. (At least) The scaled down ark replica in Holland, for example has a keel, although as you can see, it's only decorative:

  
• 

  jam

  This is no joke; From a creation science workshop..Author Charles

  A frequent question I am asked at my workshop."How did noah get all the different

  species of animals that walk the land in the ark. This would include the mammals, reptiles and

  birds but not the insects. Why you might ask, because most insects have a portion

  of their life cycle spent in the water, so they could survive outside the Ark, I kid

  you not.