I find it very hard to believe in a god (page 6)

Lion Cask

I have a great deal of respect for a certain scotsman named Richard Holloway. You can google him, if you wish. In fact, I recommend it, particularly to those of you who have posted to this thread, regardless of your intellectual or philosophical bent. In a nutshell, Mr. Holloway was the Anglican Primus of Scotland. He studied Christianity and the Bible at great length, believed it all without reservation, but in his later years has come to see it all in a much different light.

Have you ever just not been able to understand something? What I mean is, have you ever supposed something and then had it explained to you that you don't have it right, but you just don't get what that person is explaining, even when he repeats it and rephrases it? Then, after a few more attempts, the light comes on and you suddenly understand how you were thinking in error? This has happened to me on a small number of occasions, most recently when my 30 year old son was trying gently to set me straight on something, something unrelated to the subject of faith. I was processing information in a way that precluded understanding. It was only after he patiently explained himself over and over again that I at last got it. Crystal clear. And then I felt foolish.

If your brain is firmly set on some things being irrefutable, you will simply not be able to comprehend words or ideas that fit a different model, and you will not even be able to recognise it in yourself. You will much more likely perceive the other to be in error, not you, even if he understands your perspective perfectly.

For those who believe in God, I might ask that you consider this with an open mind and really try to understand it: Some of the posters in here, myself included, have experienced much the same thing as has Richard Holloway. We had a powerful faith. We have believed in God, loved Him, prayed to Him and accepted Him as absolute fact for much of our lives. But our understanding has changed. We might even use the word evolved, but for the negative connotations it brings up automatically in the minds of many.

We have been where you are, so we understand what you believe but you are incapable of understanding what we believe, because you have never been where we are.

Newborn

Lion Cask, I hear ya!

so you have no doubt what so ever anymore?

Lion Cask

Doubt itself is subjective, Newborn. I am a 6 on the Dawkins scale, where Dawkins places himself. A 1 is someone who is absolutely sure there IS a god and nobody can tell him anything different and a 7 is someone who is absolutely sure there IS NOT a god and nobody can tell him anything different. A 6 is, say, 99.999999% sure, but is not so arrogant as to believe there can be no other reality.

tec

Tammy - I do not understand what you have written. It is not making sense. You kinda believe in the bible but not that it is inerrant (so why use it at all since you openly acknowledge that it is untrustworthy?)

What is not to understand? Anything that contradicts Christ, I believe is in error. The bible has been translated and mistranslated, scribes have handled the word falsely... that's even IN the bible. So I measure what's in it, against the love and mercy and forgiveness that Christ taught, and learned from HIS Father. Besides... the bible is only one book now. So when Paul says that all scripture is God-breathed... He isn't speaking about the entire bible, and I'm not sure that a history account by men can be considered inspired.

You are happy to say it points at Christ (the flood points at Christ?, magic sticks to make animals reproduce a certain way points to Christ?, Solomon's concubines point at Christ?..sorry they don't)

It does describe the history and culture of the people Christ came from, but you're right. The whole thing does not point to Him. The Prophets and prophecies do this, and NT is comprised of different accounts witnessing to Him.

You apologise away the flood because you know full well that there never was a global flood even though the bible clearly states this.

I know no such thing. Science does not indicate it to be possible within the timeframe bible literalists have given it. (4000 years ago?) But longer ago, perhaps. I simply do not know, but I do not rule out either scenario, including a local flood that the people would have considered the world.

You are happy - when the proof is undeniable - to claim the bible is in error but anywhere else is a testament to Christ - the most important guide in your life. Can you understand why that position is flawed?

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We do have many witness accounts to Christ, however, and they do all repeat the same things. That's a good testament, imho... and He inspired good things from those who loved him. Still does. He is also the most important guide in my life because I love and believe Him. I believe in what He taught.

I'm very interested in why you think Christ is teaching you, personally, about art(ok unfair :)

:)

but about anything)? Do you have real conversations? Do you write down these scriptures (surely direct communication with Christ should be recorded.)? Or - as I suspect - are you in exactly the same boat I was in - living in a religious construct without the tools to recognise your own situation.

Christ could teach everyone, I think... if only they would listen to Him. I am not any better than anyone else. I think He is teaching me about love and mercy. Real love and mercy. I feel... a warning of sorts when I should not write or say or do something... in my spirit, although you might accept in my heart, better. I am learning to trust those feelings.

I'm not sure if you're using religious construct as a description of faith alone, or organized religion. I don't have organized religion. There is no 'social' benefit, or fear of hellfire punishment (although I liken shame and guilt to that, which is a consequence that we bring upon ourselves), or doctrines or anything like that in my faith.

Letting go was traumatic, painful, risky but ultimately empowering.

I can't comment on your experience, because it is YOUR experience. But the only fear I feel when I have forced myself to consider that it could all be a myth or a lie is fear of disappointing him. (this realization made me laugh at myself)

'Absolute nothing' after death does not frighten me in the least - and there have been times when nothing sounded wonderful in comparison to something terrible that I was feeling... such as when I stopped studying with the witnesses, thinking I was a failure for not being able to believe and/or follow them.

I don't need the bible to be anything but I know it to be written by men. I hope I can spend what few times I have with my family and friends not allowing that book of dreams to further occlude the fullest experience and expression of life.

I don't allow it to do that either.

If religion was harmless fluffyness I wouldn't make such hard points about it but the cost it exacts is so evil, so immoral and so stupefying to each individual so enslaved by its grasp that I cannot type line after line of gentle, polite nit picking in the hope that people will avoid it. Religion has had years to perfect it's schtick and snakeoil, for years with the sword and king as it's authority. Religion deserves no less than to be repeatedly held to account for a millennia of bloodshed and tears. To clear it's name all it is required to do is hold up one piece of irrefutable evidence and it can't.

I don't disagree with you about religion and the hypocrisy and greed that have gone along with it, yes. But do not forget the kings and politicians and leaders who used religion to further their agendas, and their greed for more.

Faith in Christ is not responsible for that. In fact, it goes against what He taught.

(I used the quote boxes, because you had a lot of info in your post. Sorry, but I was trying to respond to everything you said, clearly.)

Tammy

Qcmbr

Thanks Tammy I do appreciate that you didn't jump at the chance -that I offered- to be offended. I wish I could show you what I now know about what I once believed.

THE GLADIATOR

Newborn Opening post:

I chose not to believe in anything but myself and love

That's all there is and it's enough.

If you can achieve both, you will live a full life and succeed where others fail.

PSacramento

It's OK not to believe in God, that is between you and God ( If he exists) or between you and nothing if there is no God.

As you ask that your views be respected, that is what believers ask also.

We don't have to agree, just live, laugh and love together.

Qcmbr

PSac that would indeed be cool. Try that argument with a JW or in Iran. It's the religious who don't play fair. If I proposed teaching rationalism and the perfectly logical premise that no God was true in our schools how many religious parents would be ok with that?

Lion Cask

That is quite true, Qcmbr. The Bible itelf commands its adherents to proselytise to the world.

PSacramento

PSac that would indeed be cool. Try that argument with a JW or in Iran. It's the religious who don't play fair. If I proposed teaching rationalism and the perfectly logical premise that no God was true in our schools how many religious parents would be ok with that?

Well, how many atehist would be ok with them teaching the prefectly logical premise that atheistic rulers systematically commit genocide?

Not many I assure you.

Fact is, BOTH sides need to "live and let live" not just the religious side.

I find it very hard to believe in a god

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