Understanding Christ's Sacrifice (page 4)

designs

Tammy-

Here are some things to think about with the whole NT issue and statements, some of which you have included or paraphrased-

Paul says- 'In this way all Israel will be Saved' critique that

'Lost sheep of Israel'- critique that

'His blood be upon us'- critique that

How could Jesus teach Jews or anyone Truth if all we know about him is in a group of documents that are obviously corrupted for social and political gains by the Bishops led Gentile Church. Look at all of the misinformation and ignorance floating around about the basics of Judaism here.

Millions did loose their lives at the hands of the Disciples of Christ, they carried their Cross of Jesus onto the battle fields, wore Crosses, partook of Communion, were Baptized into the Father Son and Holy Ghost etc etc. You just don't like the horrible things they did, which is understandable, but look at our former religion and the horrible things they did and do. Will you let a Witness off the hook if they say 'but they weren't a 'real' Jehovah's Witness' if they did a bad thing'.

Tammy, your Jesus, or the Jesus of the NT is planning to destroy civilization as we know it and send the majority of humans to the Eternal Fires of Hell. Now you don't buy this literal bit, but that is the Christian Creed based on the NT which 'Jesus' supposedly inspired to have been written for humanity.

What I did, and many others have done, is to step back and ask the critical questions about this whole assumption. Some very nice results came from that study.

tec

Millions did loose their lives at the hands of the Disciples of Christ

No. Millions did lose their lives at the hands of those people who called themselves Christians. But they were not following Christ (though they may have thought so). They were following men, kings, political governments, and perhaps their own biases and hatreds egged on by those aforementioned people/groups. But not by Christ. And you're right. I don't like those horrible things they did. But I don't blame Christ for it, especially not when He taught the opposite.

Now found in that group of documents that you like to blame along with Christ are the words, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do." If Christ asked his father to forgive them (whether you believe there was anything to forgive or not), then who dares think that they can or should override what He asked his own Father to do? He even said that his kingdom was not from this place OR his disciples would fight to protect him. But his kingdom was from another place.

Tammy, your Jesus, or the Jesus of the NT is planning to destroy civilization as we know it and send the majority of humans to the Eternal Fires of Hell.

'My' Jesus isn't planning on doing any such thing - and I don't come to that conclusion by overlooking things I don't like. But perhaps you overlook things to come to yours?

Please explain to me how the above words of Christ condone violence toward anyone, much less the Jews?

Tammy

whereami

I'm posting this because some have already touched on these points presented. Tammy, or anyone else how believes in the sacrifice, what do you find wrong in this video? Please watch it until the end. Some good points are being made.

Looking forward to your insights. Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr_5Tbm0mPo

tec

Well, I don't believe in the trinity, Whereami - so the 'sacrifice of myself to myself' doesn't really apply. I don't believe in an eternal hellfire of torture, so that doesn't apply to me either.

One point in the video says that God would punish the son even though he stopped doing the bad thing... just because he did not ask for forgiveness. I would offer the parable of the two sons:

"There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir, ' but he did not go. Which of the two did what his father wanted?"

For those who think the three day sacrifice and a few hours torture not sufficient to mean anything... I think perhaps you miss the point in this (and so did I, so I'm not judging): God requires mercy, not sacrifice.

Christ demonstrated mercy by forgiving those who had wronged him even to the point of his torture and death... and He asked also that his father forgive them. The fact that God granted his son the authority to take his life back up, is an act of mercy also. And love - which covers over a multitude of sins, and against which, no law can stand.

I don't think the person in the video can have it both ways: a)God is a monster for sacrificing his son to begin with, punishing and torturing him... and b) God is also as weak as his insignificant sacrifice, for not making it worse and leaving his son dead forever.

Tammy

AGuest

I truly understand and get it, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you!): sometimes you just gotta get out what's "in" you. Even if others don't get it. Sometimes in spite of the fact that others won't get it (often, because they can't receive such truths). Not to worry, of course, as some of us DID get it. Fully. And fully appreciate it as well as bear witness to the truth of it.

I know you know this... but just in case you need to hear it... in the end all that matters is that you spoke your truth... and the truth about God and Christ (Malachi 3:16)

Again, peace to you, dear one... and thank you for sharing this "revelation."

Your servant, sister, and fellow slave of Christ,

SA

designs

Tammy-

This is the same type of response we were taught as JWs trying to rationalize a 'Loving God' and human civilization being wiped out at Armageddon led by none other than that 'prince of peace' Jesus and his celestial army.

You may conceive of a Universalism concept with your personal view of this Jesus but that is not the NT. People have been trying to soften the NT Jesus for some time now because the NT Jesus is the one who throws people 'the chaff' into the 'Fire'. Good ol happy go lucky Jesus- John the Baptist nicely warns people about this guy, Matthew 3:12, and tells us what he has planned, then Jesus himself tells us what he has planned - Matthew 25:31-46 where he twice tells us what he plans to do for people that don't go along with his scheme vs 41,46. Revelation gets even more lovely.

The dichotomy is the Max Von Sydow Hollywood version people would like to follow and the guy who says those on my left depart into everlasting Fire. That's a tough one and I sympathize. Eventually as a JW and then attending Calvary Chapel I could no longer rationalize or follow such a person.

Amelia Ashton

Streets76. I agree.

Once a ransom is paid those paying the ransom do not ususally get their money back. That is the sacrifice, losing the money. But,

"God loved the world so much he lent his only begotten son for a short period of time, but then he got him back again a bit later on. Perhaps someone can explain the sacrifice and ransom thing to me cos I never truly understood it.

designs

Amelia-

Christian theologians have been split on what Jesus death meant and accomplishes- Sacrificial Substitution or Liberation, did he die for Adam's sin, for personal sins, or to release people from bondage. Then the difficulty becomes how can God be killed and die, some theologians try to say God died for a split second or the human part of this man died but not the God side and so on. Remember the NT says this God wondered among the netherworld preaching to the 'spirits' while the human part was in a tomb.

The Greek and Roman Bishops tried their best to put together a Hero for the Gentile World, drawing on Heros from Egyptian and Asian mythology, they just left a few gaps open. It is almost an exact retelling of the Egyptian story.

PSacramento

did Jesus really preach acceptance of the motives and actions of ALL?

Since I didn'tmention ANYTHING about motives, I am not sure why you are asking me that question, but since you asked, NO, he didn't preach accepteance of any motives, matter of fact it's pretty clear that THE motive of Love is crucial.

It's quite alright for us to have different personal opinions about Christ and what his sacrifice meant to us, the early christians had them too, it happens one one is FREE to have a personal relationship with Christ and not under an authoritive dictatorship that tells you what to do and what to believe and HOW to believe it.

Re Jews not needed to be saved, well, for a people not needed to be saved, they sure talk a lot about a savior:

http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=savior&t=NASB&sf=5

tec

Shelby - I know some people get it - and I am thankful that I finally 'get it' too, and happy I was able to share my understanding. I do not want that understanding to get lost in the rest that came after, and I hope it does not, but if I believe untruths are spoken about Christ, I want to try and speak the truth instead.

Designs - you didn't answer my question, (or perhaps you mistook it or I was unclear) concerning your statement that the disciples of Christ were just following Christ when they killed innocents, or that even the NT sanctions that. I asked you to explain to me how His words sanctioned any violence at all toward anyone, much less toward the Jews, the ones He was sent to.

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do."

Amelia - I tried to address that a couple posts up from yours. Did you not agree, or did you miss it perhaps?

Tammy

Understanding Christ's Sacrifice

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