How do you know if you're going to heaven? (page 5)

aChristian

Jan,

You wrote: One amazing example of how doubt was villified, we find in the story about Thomas the doubter. ... Alas, here we find Jesus (John 20:29) ruining the whole story by making an outragously stupid conclusion: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ... In other words, the Jesus of John blessed blind superstitious faith and repudiated sound skepticism.

Baloney. Jesus did not condemn Thomas' sceptisism. He simply praised most Christians whom He knew were willling and able to believe in Him with less physical proof. You seem to think it is a virtue to only believe in things which can be proven beyond any doubt. I do not. Requiring absolute proof of something before you are willing to believe in it is not a virtue. It is a harmful vise. Such an attitude causes people many problems in life. One such problem is being unable to trust in other people. I trust my wife completely. I am certain that she has never cheated on me and never will. But how can I be sure? I have not had her followed everyday by a private detective. Neither am I able to look into the future. So how can I be so sure about this matter without absolute proof? It's called "faith." I have faith in my wife. I know she appreciates my faith in her.

I also have faith in Jesus Christ. And I'm sure that He appreciates my faith in Him. He indicated His appreciation for Christians who are able to put this kind of faith in Him when He said, "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Englishman

Will there be Marmite in heaven?

Englishman.

Hey! Now you are an outie, you can dance too!

JanH

ac,

Baloney. Jesus did not condemn Thomas' sceptisism. He simply praised most Christians whom He knew were willling and able to believe in Him with less physical proof.

Read the text in John again. Thomas, who ever since has been labeled with the (to xtians) derogatory term "doubter", is certainly rebuked by Jesus. Jesus put him up as a contrast to those who have faith without any evidence. Why should Jesus praise those for the opposite action if he did not think Thomas had done something wrong? You simply miss -- intentionally for rhetorical effect, of course -- the moral lesson of the whole tale, which is that doubt is bad.

You seem to think it is a virtue to only believe in things which can be proven beyond any doubt. I do not.

Straw man. Hardly anything is "beyond any doubt". Your trust in a statement should be in proportion to how important it is for you, and for how much evidence exists in its favor.

Uncertainty is a part of everything in real life.

We deal with it by applying sound skepticism to all sorts of information (e.g. politics, advertising) based on experience. Except when it comes to religion. Then suddenly belief in absurd tales about dead people being raised, water made into wine, snakes talking, etc, etc, is evidence of virtue, instead of stupidity. Why is that?

- Jan
--
The believer is happy. The doubter is wise.

plmkrzy

Christian
"You seem to think it is a virtue to only believe in things which can be proven beyond any doubt."

Well i'm sorry that you mis-understood the point I was attempting to make. I'm trying to get better at expresing myself here without offending as many as possible. I was being a little sarcastic. I also was not born and raised in Mt.I think thats the "Show me State".
Most of the things i believe in cannot be physically proven to the point of satisfying the average person. That doesn't concern me.

"Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." ... In other words, the Jesus of John blessed blind superstitious faith and repudiated sound skepticism.

Again, Jesus was simply making a point about how "Faith" doesn't
come quite as easy as seeing for your self.

- Jan
--
The believer is happy. The doubter is wise.

I do agree with that! I'm like both. A little wise and a little happy.
I don't believe anyone is totally happy or totally wise.

plm

plmkrzy

Man that pic sucks! i'm going to try another.

aChristian

Jan,

You wrote: Read the text in John again. ... when it comes to religion ... belief in absurd tales ... is evidence of virtue, instead of stupidity. Why is that?

I read it again. Nowhere in this text does Jesus either say or imply that it is a virtue to believe something without having some evidence of its truthfulness. The fact is, the Bible contains several passages that encourage us to be skeptical of those making religious claims. I'm sure you know of these passages, so I wont bother to quote them. In the text you quoted, the only thing Christ indicated He considered to be a virtue was being willing to believe in things that are true without having absolute physical proof that they are true.

You wrote: You simply miss -- intentionally for rhetorical effect, of course -- the moral lesson of the whole tale.

It seems we understand this passage differently. But I will not question the motives behind the understanding you expressed, as you have questioned mine.

SixofNine

F2Jah,

I'll give you points on your insult, it was good. Rude and mean, but good. I'm in no position to cry foul, lol.

However, I have never once blasphemed God, and that is in spite of having strong doubts of a God's existence.

Any small good that can be carefully extracted from the bible, pales in comparison to the evil that that book has foisted upon mankind thru the ages. Perhaps belief in the bible as being inspired of God is the greatest blasphemy of all?

Christiangal

Sixofnine,
In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, the Bible says "All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

You stated that "perhaps belief in the Bible as being inspired of God is the greatest blasphemy of all."

Is there any way that you can prove that the Bible is not inspired by God and is there any way that you can prove that the Bible is incorrect in any way?

I am sorry that you have strong doubts about God's existence. Without God you wouldn't even be here on Earth. It's quite a shame that you have doubts of God's existence.

And, what kind of evil has been "foisted upon mankind thru the ages" because of the Bible? Just answer me these questions if you think you can come up with your usual twisted answers.

SixofNine

In 2 Timothy 3:16-17, the Bible says "All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

Christiangal, are you crazy? I don't mean to be overly harsh, just sharp and to the point. Why would you quote a scripture (which you have to know that I am VERY aware of) that says all scripture is "god breathed"? I mean, duh! Sure it says that. If I want to get people hanging on my every word, I'll tell them what I write, and what I beleive in, is "god breathed" too. Will you then believe me to be inspired of God?

I think I made it clear that I simply don't believe that scripture. BTW, why do you believe it? Why do you accept the current bible canon as "scripture". Do you accept other writings that were considered but not included in the bible canon? Which canon do you accept? Why?

Is there any way that you can prove that the Bible is not inspired by God and is there any way that you can prove that the Bible is incorrect in any way?

I doubt it, not to you. But I feel pretty sure that if you looked at it thru clear, unemotional, logical lenses, you'd prove it to yourself. As for the Bible being "incorrect", just take a look at any list of bible inconsistancy. Historical errors abound. Mankind did not just show up in the form of two humans 6k years ago. The earth was not deluged with water 3500 years ago (aprox). Mankind certainly did not start up from one small family 3500 years ago. etc, etc, etc.

Without God you wouldn't even be here on Earth. It's quite a shame that you have doubts of God's existence.

Well now, that depends entirely on God's existence, now doesn't it? A shame eh? As I pointed out earlier, I can't help but think that if there is a God, He/She/It respects the doubter more than the suckup-to-him faithful. After all, it is from our amazing rational minds that serious questions of Gods existence spring from.

what kind of evil has been "foisted upon mankind thru the ages" because of the Bible?

Well lets just take one thing for starters. Take a little kid. Tell him all the Bible stories. Tell him the story about Abraham and Isaac. Do you think that story will color his thoughts about the way god works? Do you think his perception about the way god works may affect how he acts towards other humans, especially in relation to other humans who he thinks do not have gods approval? Do you think he might be convinced to do some pretty crazy things in the name of religion? Mix in all the other bible stories where "unbeliever's" (actually just foreigners) lives are snuffed out w/o even a trial.

You have a recipe there for religious fanatacism and hatred that the entire earth has labored under for thousands of years.

Yep, the world would be a better place if NO ONE took that book for anything but the ramblings of ancient semitic men. Men with their own best interest at heart. Not yours, not mine. (the situation could at least be a bit better if women had written every other book, but no, god didn't make allowance for that, did he? No, that would have made too much sense).

Christiangal

It is just ashame Sixofnine, that you will never surrender to the Truth. I just pray that you find Jesus, the Savior of the World, before your time here on Earth is up. By then it will be too late if you have not called on the name of the Lord.

Oh, and about a list of Bible inconsistencies, maybe you could show me some of those. I am in Seminary and I have yet to find any Bible inconsistencies. Please list some "Historical Errors" if you could.

How do you know if you're going to heaven?

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