How a JW responds to the change in the Awake masthead will tell you a lot about their willingness to think for themselves.
Unfortunately, JWs are constantly trained to let the WTS do the thinking for them.
Questions to ask from Bible Teach Ch 8
by InterestedOne 32 Replies latest watchtower bible
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InterestedOne
Edit: Ding I saw your edit. Yes, the nature of my conductor's responses tell me a lot.
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brotherdan
We made it to the end of the chapter & decided to discuss 1914 next time.
This was his way of getting out of it so he could do some self brainwashing...er...I mean "research" as to how the WT spins it.
This is a pretty intense topic, so you'll need to be prepared for his responses.
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Black Sheep
I had already skimmed over some of the problems like 587 and I told him about them.
No
No
No
I said tell him nothing. There are very good reasons for this. Please try to understand them. I am sure I have already given them to you.
Just ask questions that lead him to tell you what you wanted to tell him. Telling him stuff that he doesn't like might warn him that you have been getting advice from those Satan inspired nasty, horrible APOSTATES.
... he proposed that we table the issue and work through the Bible Teach book & see if 1914 makes more sense after I am more familiar with JW doctrine.
This is standard WT MO. The object of their game is to convince you that the WT was selected by Jesus in 1919 to be God's sole channel in our day before going back and discussing your problem. They hope that by that time, you will not even want to know the answer to your question, as it will discredit your newfound beliefs, and deny you their carrot of everlasting life in Paradise.
Make the point that, if their calculation for 1914 is faulty, that you are both going to waste each other's time studying the rest of the book, so lets get it over with before you proceed any further.
Tell him nothing.
Be truly interested in what he has to say.
Believe nothing without that pinch of salt.
Ask for documentation.
He thinks he is the teacher. Make him earn that title ..... and make him feel guilty when he doesn't.
Good luck
Chris
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InterestedOne
Hey Black Sheep - I had brought up 587 a long time ago - when I very first started the study. When we very first started, they didn't go straight into the Bible Teach book. Instead, they were trying to warm me up by asking if I had any questions about JW's. I had been reading up on JW's even prior to starting the study, and the 1914 thing seemed weird to me. I was much more naive at that time. Our first couple of studies involved discussing 1914. When I brought up 587, he was not aware of it. He did some "research" & came back with something about the 70 years & how JW's go by the Bible, not necessarily what archaeologists may or may not find. He said they use the 539 date that archaeologists confirm because it agrees with the Bible. As for 587, he says it doesn't work with other Bible prophesies, so JW's don't accept it. Apart from the numbers, I said I didn't see why they attached any meaning to the tree in Daniel beyond what the story says it means - the Babylonian king. I couldn't see how that would somehow represent God's people. Even the Reasoning book and the Bible Teach book say slightly different things about what it represents. Eventually, my conductor suggested we table the issue and see if it makes more sense after we go through the book. I agreed thinking what the heck, let's see what these people's worldview is.
When we did the study last night, we discussed the paragraphs leading up to the last one in ch 8, where they mention 1914. We ended on that note and agreed to focus on 1914 next time. I'm sure he will be preparing. Your advice has been very helpful and spot on regarding his attitude. Like you said, I will let him be the teacher. I just need to have my information straight.
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brotherdan
Interested One: You have a PM.
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Mad Sweeney
It's always about being careful not give the "wrong impression." He won't even let me say "your leaders." He insists I use the phrase "those taking the lead among you" because "your leaders" supposedly gives the wrong impression.
I think it is important to not let those conversations die with that answer. In every case of WT-invented definitions of words or phrases lies deception that should cause some cognitive dissonance in a JW. You can't successfully push them too hard but you also need to make clear that in their attempt to not "give the wrong impression" they come out looking deceptive. Ask him, "is that the impression you want to give people?"
As for the 1914 stuff, Chris Black Sheep knows what he's talking about. I can't really add anything to that part of the discussion that hasn't already been said.
Good luck.
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brotherdan
Going along with Mad Sweeny's comment, they claim to have no clergy. Yet if you read the 9/15/2010 WT, they say that by following the GB, they are in fact following Christ himself. No leaders? Distinction without a difference. That's the game they LOVE to play.
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Black Sheep
I just need to have my information straight.
It is better to make sure you have your question straight.
These are slippery little buggers.
Before you respond to anything a Dub says, stop for a second and ask yourself, 'Was what he just said really answering the question that I asked?"
Some tactics:
Ignor your question and try to prove their position from a different angle.
Speak volumes about a slightly related subject without actually answering your question.
Rephrasing your question to something they like better.
Putting it off until later, then conveniently forgetting to discuss it.
Questioning the source of your question. (Looking for apostate influence.)
I'm sure there are plenty more they can think of.
From what you have said, he is already using some of these.
What he will be doing is boning up on the reasoning they use to arrive at 607. Every calculation they use, contains an assumption. Sometimes it is not easy to spot. You don't need to know any of it.
What you do need to understand is that, if there are no flaws in the data that scholars use to arrive at Nebuchadnezzar's reign beginning in 605, then it doesn't matter how clever his reasoning seems to be, it must be flawed.
It is up to him to demonstrate where the the flaw is in the king list, because he is pretending to be the teacher.
It is not up to you to find every flaw in every method they use to 'prove' 607 as you are not claiming to be the teacher.
Tell him you will discuss his other methods of working it out AFTER he has shown you the flaws in the king list.
Good luck
Chris
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