by mindmelda 73 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Oh hell, it's just a bit of fun. This is the internet- if we all sit at our keyboards nodding our heads in agreement, it's going to be pretty dull...
Besides, you have to be sure of what you believe in so you can act decisively if the occasion demands it... from our beliefs our actions come...
In my opinion what happens is when people leave the Org, many feel that everything they were taught (even the nature of God) has to be false as well and so they throw it all out. In my opinion this is a mistake (I have made it as well). I don't fault God for my problems as a JW, afterall I have free will and chose to stay in an abusive organization. Many will say they have friends and family etc, but it's just an excuse. I had/have these things as well and I had to determine which was more important to me, my own mental health and well-being or being close to my family and friends who's "love" was conditional upon me staying an active JW.? It's not love.
I didn't leave God. I left an abusive man made organization that claimed to represent God, but by their works I knew them to be liars. I also left people who claimed to be my friends and family but were more interested in saving face with an organization than taking a chance and applying the example of Jesus in their lives than they were in showing love to a fellow human being.
RELIGION IS LIKE A PENIS
It's fine to have one.
It's fine to be proud of it.
But please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around.
And PLEASE don't try to shove it down my children's throats.
(Not sure of the source, but I like it.)
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Good thread MM,
I think a lot of irritation is caused on both sides of the Christian/Atheist discussion because of a very human trait, that of not really listening.
We tend to spout off without really being aware of what the other side is saying. Remember how we all used to react to someone who was of a trinitarian point of view when we were JW's ? We did not know what we were talking about--literally, we did not know what had been established as the doctrine of the trinity, we really had not "listened".
It is annoying when someone says "You are a Triniterian so you believe ........... " or "You are an Atheist so ............ " and proceeds to show they do not know what the Trinity is , or what an Atheist is.
So instead of addressing the topic, we get stuck on Labels, or trying to show where the "opposition" is in error.
I think it is better, if we can make ourselves do it, to try to listen to the other persons point of view, put ourselves inside their head and see what they are thinking and feeling, and then perhaps offer an alternative for them to consider, but never in a points scoring way.
I have to confess I do not always even come close to that ideal, especially when someone from a very different world-view than mine tells me in a self-righteous way that I am "Damned to Hell" or infers something similar, and their belief is baseless as far as I can see.
There is a lot too of, "New Convert Zeal" , I know at the various stages I have reached on my spiritual journey away from the WT cult , I want to shout my newly discovered knowledge from the roof tops, and at the time it seems as though you should, but really we still need to respect where other people are on their particular journey.
Having said all that, I do think that debates on here where people get really involved, and sometimes even a bit heated, are really helpful and above all Great Fun !
Good points, wobble.
Coming into any discussion with a pre-set point of view makes for an argument rather than a discussion where information is interchanged, examined and maybe assimilated.
Having no intention of learning from or listening to the other person means you're not here for that, you're merely here to either prove you're right, to yourself or to someone else or both.
You won't accomplish that with someone who isn't willing to be converted nor will you convince them that you're right and they are wrong. A person who doesn't listen and has already made up their minds what they believe is not a person you can change, in fact, you usually end up making them more defensive of their position and they dig in their heels all the more.
Having a definite position is not wrong (I don't look at much as "right or wrong" which are moral judgments I only make for myself now, but more in terms of beneficial or unhelpful, positive or negative) , but realize it limits you as to learning more, if that's what you want.
If you're happy where you are, and have no desire to learn more, that's fine, but realize you're not going to have much success converting someone with the same mindset but with opposite ideas or beliefs.
You won't convert me for a different reason, I dislike and and am unable to buy into proscribed "Here's your book of beliefs and club jacket that you need to be spiritual and please God" thinking or beliefs anymore after my 36 years of association with JWs. That's what most organized religion seems like to me now, although I realize some people like and need a church that sets things out for them with the social attachments and the moral boundaries.
I'm not scared of it, I freely walk into churches of different kinds and talk and even participate these days when I feel like it, find it interesting, even moving to share with people who express their spirituality (If they'll let me!) but I feel no real need to join anything.
I didn't "leave God" either. I feel far more spiritual now than when I was a Witness. The people who are spiritual among Witnesses find their spirituality from within themselves, just like anyone else. They're not getting it from the WTS, not that I can see.
As JWs we were so trained to have "the truth" fit neatly into a 192 page book along with some color pictures (or the old 2 color pictures in the old publications), then we ignore everything that doesn't agree with what's in that book, and we run around preaching to others in an effort to convince and recruit others with our little book of "truth".
There's something about that mentality of having all the answers that when we realize those answers are wrong, it leaves a huge void that needs to be filled. So we fill that void with other flavors of Christianity, atheism, or something else... like KFC and beer maybe. But I digress... it's all about searching for conclusive answers, and then shoving those answers down everyone else's throats.
Sounds good to me Billy. Whether we like it or not, our jw training does not disappear that quickly. It ends up being the belief that there is only one way to think that leads to a good outcome, ours...........
When I was an active JW, I didn't need any EVIDENCE to develop strong beliefs. The WT corporation simply printed magazines, and I would blindly follow whatever it said.
Now, it will take a little more than an assertion put forth with little or no evidence for me to develop a strongly held belief.
I can only assume that if any Christians here are promoting Jesus, they are simply folllowing their Master's example/command. This is to be expected.
If I ask a few questions, here and there, this should also be expected, seeing as how my spiritual abuse originated with a religion masquerading as 'Christian'.
I dislike being villanized for asking questions by being called a "doubter" or an "unbeliever" also.
I am a skeptic, but willing to believe if given enough reason to.
Atheists are rampant. The site is going through a very dry and boring spell right now. Now and then JWN is buzzing with non-atheist discussions, biblical debates, scriptural bantering, some very interesting and useful topics, rather academic in fact. Sadly, much of it lately is hot air. Not sure why. The God-haters and denyers seem to have stomped all over this thing and run most of the believers off or pushed them underground.
Is it a big burst of rationality and and a desire to be completely logical that causes atheists to be so certain and I just lack the desire or ability to be that rational?
Yea pretty much. I got out an illogical, irrational cult - why join another? I'd rather just be logical from now on.
