It's things like this that made me bin all my NWT of the Bible including the reference Bible. Can't trust that translation for an accurate rendition of scripture.
Jehovah Bled For YOU - To Receive YOUR Punishment (the wages of sin)
by Perry 96 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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OnTheWayOut
You have evidence that God doesn't exist?
I have plenty of solid evidence that the God of the Bible doesn't exist. The rest- the burden is on you. Otherwise, that's the same old dance- Do you have evidence that Thor doesn't exist? Flying Spaghetti Monster? Can you even prove that a teapot doesn't orbit the planet?
Christians have first hand, primary source testimony that Jesus is alive, and lives within them.
Conflicting Christians have that conflicting testimony. Muslims and plenty of others have similar actual testimony of their beliefs. AGuest (where's she been?) has such testimony that God's spirit is named SHOELESSJOE or something like that, and that the Bible is only true when it's convenient. Anecdotal evidence is just not acceptable for those and other reasons.
What about your own violations of character that you have agreed to try to live by?
I do not understand that at all. If you are referring to my past as a JW, everyone has a past. We grow. The most harm I did was helping others to stay active in a dangerous mind-control cult. I feel sorry about that and would gladly apologize to any who would like to come out of the JW's and speak to me about it. Of course, I do not knowingly agree to live by violations of character. But let's go there.
would you agree to allow an all-knowing God judge you according to your own standards instead of his?
You are seeming to say that I am some kind of a hypocrite to some degree. Humans are here on earth for the time they are here. If we commit crimes and get caught (or are assumed to have committed them) then some judicial body "judges" us. Otherwise, we all make mistakes. Nothing I have done in this life is deserving of eternal damnation in torture. And virtually none of us die because of of some judgement against us- exceptions are death penalties and murders of some sorts that might be viewed as justifiable homicide. Nothing I have done is even deserving of death. I never killed anyone, nor raped anyone. Oh, you want to hold me accountable for lies and hurt I have caused others. Is that it?
In Alcoholics Anonymous, many have learned to address the lies and hurt they may have caused others. I do what I can. But even if I didn't, I have not committed "sins." That's something religion made up.
If the God of the Bible existed, I would let my own standards, including any violations, stand up to His standards as long as we can include His violations. I definitely do not approve of slavery, genocide, and raping little girls after killing their parents. I don't approve of men being domineering over women. I do not approve of tempting naive innocent humans, then punishing all their offspring for failing a test of temptation. I do not say sometines that the sins of the father are not to be a burden upon the sons and at most other times say the opposite. I would never kill someone's son because their father got a married woman pregnant and sent her husband to his death when he couldn't get the husband to think the baby would be his own.
I could go on and on, Perry. But I made that point. I would let my standards stand up to such a God, but I would not let HIM judge me. I already know He is not fair. I would only let others judge who has lived up to their standards better and whose standards are truly higher. And when I say I would let "others" judge, it certainly couldn't be the likes of you that accept and even excuse the standards (and violations of them) by this God. It would have to be "others" that think for themselves.
Go ahead and pick that apart. Have fun. I won't bother to respond except if you explain the "violations of character" comment better.
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SweetBabyCheezits
OTWO
Perry: Christians have first hand, primary source testimony that Jesus is alive, and lives within them. This is NOT FAITH. This is what we have been saying for 2000 years and will continue to truthfully say, no matter the consequences until he returns.
Why is Jesus always living inside people? He sounds like a parasite. Have you, by chance, been drinking directly from freshwater ponds or streams? Have you eaten any raw meat lately?
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OnTheWayOut
Wanted to add a response to the original post.
"YOUR Punishment" is judgement from God after he tempted the naive innocent humans with an unfair test and decided that they failed and all their offspring would inherit some part of that failure and need to be punished.
God could simply have forgiven.
His solution is that "He" (or His son, maybe part of Him or not) would suffer a few years and be killed for everyone else. I would gladly take "His" kind of suffering over some of the decades-long and lifelong ailments that some humans receive.
If children have to be born into painful existences with debilitating diseases because of something in that unfair test 6000 years ago, but those same children must grow up to say that a man/god who was killed after a few days of mistreatment must "know" what it's like, then let HIM bleed for others. Just give me the wages of "sin" that He defined.
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whereami
It's really is amazing to sit back and listen/watch a brainwashed mind at work.
Some people just feel the need to be special.
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villabolo
Perry said:
"If the uber liberals want to disregard democracy
and just come and take our stuff,
then they can enjoy the bloodbath to follow."
And now he wants you to bleed for him
Villabolo
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djeggnog
@Perry:
Zech 12: 9,10 (Jehovah is speaking)
KJV - and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son
NASB - so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son
NIV - They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and
NWT (Fred Franz) - they will certainly look to the One whom they pierced through, and they will certainly wail over Him as in the wailing over an only [son];
In one of your posts to @wasblind, you wrote the following:
[T]he scripture means exactly what it reads. Jehovah predicted that he himself would be pierced. It was Fred Franz who didn't like what the word of God said and changed it to read "the One" instead of "me", meaning Jehovah....
However, his shell game is over. The essence (whatever that is) of God, in the body of the man Jesus Christ bled for everyone who would accept a pardon. Jehovah himself is our Savior and so is Jesus; but because they share the same essence, they are one and the same. Jehovah did all this.
You also quoted John 14:8, 9 after stating the following:
The eternal Son of God was in two places at the same time... in the body of Jesus Christ while he spoke those words, and in heaven at the same time.
It is clear to me why, based upon the way in which Zechariah 12:10 is rendered in the KJV, NASB and NIV, among other Bible translations, like the RSV and the ASV, how it is that you might have concluded that Fred Franz or someone associated with Jehovah's Witnesses to have been responsible for tampering with the Bible text when translating the Hebrew text into the English language to produce the NWT Bible. However, you are not a Bible scholar, so no one could expect you to know all there is to be known about Bible manuscripts and Bible translation, but you are mistaken. I'm not saying that anyone needs to be a Bible scholar in order to understand the Bible, but I am such.
After the Greek translation of the NWT first began to be published back in 1950, over a period of eight years, starting in 1952 and ending in 1960, the Hebrew translation of the NWT in five volumes were published, until, in 1961, the entire Bible containing both the Hebrew and Greek scriptures was first published. But I have pasted into this message excerpts of Zechariah 12:10 from the Lesser Old Testament, published in 1853, and the Jewish Publication Society Old Testament, published in 1917, so that you might have opportunity to compare the KJV rendering of this verse against the rendering of this same verse in these two other Bible translations, which were published years before the NWT was first published.
Zechariah 12:10 (Authorized King James Version [1611])
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
Zechariah 12:10 (Lesser Old Testament [1853])
"But I will pour out over the house of David, and over the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they will look up toward me for every one whom they have thrust through, and they will lament for him, as one lamenteth for an only son, and weep bitterly for him, as one weepeth bitterly for the first-born."
Zechariah 12:10 (Jewish Publication Society Old Testament [1917])
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto Me because they have thrust him through; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born."
Also, this particular verse at Zechariah 12:10 is quoted by the apostle John in his gospel at John 19:37, so it is clear that this prophecy is being applied to the Lord Jesus Christ, not to Jehovah:
And, again, a different scripture says: "They will look to the One whom they pierced."
But the fact that John is here quoting from Zechariah 12:10 will not convince you that Jesus Christ and Jehovah are not the same person, and this is not the reason I have posted this message, but the real purpose of this message was to point out to you how the NWT isn't unique in its rendering of this verse as being applicable to someone else other than Jehovah.
While I have all of these Bible translations open on my PC, I through I would also paste into this message a few more excerpts of Zechariah 12:10 as this verse is rendered in four (4) other Bible translations, the first of these having been published back in 1949:
Zechariah 12:10 (Bible in Basic English [1949/1964])
"And I will send down on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of prayer; and their eyes will be turned to the one who was wounded by their hands: and they will be weeping for him as for an only son, and their grief for him will be bitter, like the grief of one sorrowing for his oldest son."
Zechariah 12:10 (New Life Bible [1969])
"I will pour out the Spirit of loving-favor and prayer on the family of David and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look on Him Whose side they cut. They will cry in sorrow for Him, as one cries for an only son. They will cry much over Him, like those who have lost their first-born son."
Zechariah 12:10 (Good News Bible [1976])
"I will fill the descendants of David and the other people of Jerusalem with the spirit of mercy and the spirit of prayer. They will look at the one whom they stabbed to death, and they will mourn for him like those who mourn for an only child. They will mourn bitterly, like those who have lost their first-born son."
Zechariah 12:10 (The New Revised Standard Version [1989])
"And I will pour out a spirit of compassion and supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that, when they look on the one F42 whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn."
One other point I wanted to make in this post:
You also posted the following --
Acts 20: 28 (The Christian God bleeds)
KJV - feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood
NASB - shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood
NIV - Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood
NWT (Fred Franz) - shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son]
-- following which you wrote the following (in one of your posts to @wasblind):
Having done that, [Franz] then proceeded to add [Son] in Acts so that God himself wouldn't be bleeding.
I don't believe I will be able to dissuade you from reading Acts 20:28 and interpreting this verse to mean something that it really doesn't mean since it is clear to me that you believe in the trinity doctrine. I will say though that Franz had nothing at all to do with what the apostle Paul is saying here in this verse either. The rendering of the Greek text in the NWT is literally translated as "with the blood of his own," but in order to help the reader to complete the thought being made there by Paul, the word "Son" being added, but enclosed in brackets ("with the blood of his own [Son]") in order to indicate that the word "Son" was added in order to complete the thought being made in this verse.
Despite your contention to the contrary, @Perry, Jesus is not Jehovah God, although the church of God does belong to God. As Paul stated at Acts 17:24, 31, "the God that made the world and all the things in it ... has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and [God] has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected [Jesus] from the dead."
I might add here that Jehovah has never been a man, for "no man has seen God at any time" (John 1:18), but the Bible does say about this "man" who will "judge the inhabited earth in righteousness" -- the Lord Jesus Christ -- that he "became flesh" (John 1:14), so obviously folks did see Jesus, both before his resurrection when he had died as a man (which God cannot do, btw!), and after he was resurrected by God from the dead as a spirit. (Acts 2:32; Romans 10:9; 1 Corinthians 15:4-6)
The Bible teaches that "the wages sin pays is death" (Romans 6:23), and Jesus' blood is what atones for our sins; his death did not constitute "punishment," but the payment of a debt, which ransom was paid by Jesus to Jehovah to whom this debt was owed, and contrary to what you believe, it was Jesus who bled for the sake of redeemable mankind. (Matthew 20:28)
@djeggnog
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WTWizard
I find it offensive for the Washtowel Slaveholdery to tamper with the Bible and then present the tampered version as essential for your survival. They play on people's respect for the Bible, and then they come up with a translation that will sucker in many people. It is engineered to fit their own doctrines, and they tell people that the errors are in the other Bibles as if every other translation but theirs is influenced by Satan. Then they will use it to keep the people as slaves.
If you want to worship Satan, fine--I myself believe the whole Bible is a scam designed by Jehovah to enslave us to Jehovah, and Satan and Jesus each made valient and unsuccessful attempts to liberate us from Jehovah. However, I will not twist the Bible up and coerce others to believe it under threat of death and destruction or hellfire, and twist it to fit my doctrines. And I am not going to direct others that they need to see the Bible as I see it. That you can do on your own, or you can believe in a good God--but twisting the word that people respect as divine authority for your own benefit is just plain wrong.
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tec
I find it funny how they can believe the bible is inerrant... but only their version.
Tammy
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wasblind
WTWizard said:
" However, I will not twist the Bible up and coerce others to believe it under threat of death and destruction or hellfire, and twist it to fit my doctrines. "
" but twisting the word that people respect as divine authority for your own benefit is just plain wrong."
Revelation 22:18-19
18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book
