The Soul

by free2beme 39 Replies latest jw friends

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  factfinder

  @InterestedOne-

  I believe there is only 1 YOU. There is no one else who has all of your personality; exactly the same traits, memories and life experiences,etc. We are not robots. When a person is resurrected he will recognize himself as: HIMSELF! Others who knew him (or her) will know it is the same person.

  Jehovah makes YOU when you are resurrected!

  As I mentioned in my previous post- our cells die and replace themselves all of our life. Thus, the body you have now is not the same one you had when you were born, or were a teenager or in your 20's etc. The cells in your body and brain keep dying and being replaced based on the information stored in your DNA. Yet throughout your life you are the same person. Your body changes, but you don't. None of us really have the exact same body we had 10 years or so ago. Yet we are the same person, right? When Jehovah resurrects us, he is simply starting the same process in our cells that has been going on since we were concieved. The body he gives us is has the same DNA. We are unique. You would still be the same person you are now if you died and Jehovah resurrects you. I hope I am being clear enough- you would be YOU just like you are YOU right now!!!
• 

  free2beme

  Jehovah is going to clone you! Wouldn't it be awesome to make a movie in which they should this and had errors, like he got the hair color wrong our accidently gave you a penis or vagina, as the files of his supposed memories were messed up in some angel game.
• 

  frigginconfused

  Its a question of time. Youre assuming time passes while youre dead. Hundreds of years may pass before your resurected. In that case you would have a problem.

  Consider this... Youre dealing with a being that is no way connected to time. When you enter that stream you dont need to store the soul. You die and seconds later if not instantly you wake up in the new system. No time passes from your perspective. Only your friends and loved ones will be aware that years might have passed.

  If you believe in the resurection and new system this fixes the problem.
• 

  frigginconfused

  factfinder I like your viewpoint. Like 2 brand new laptops. Exactly the same model. You can wirelessley send out a program from one and destroy it and run the second just the same as the first.
• 

  factfinder

  @frigginconfused-

  I agree. While we are dead we know nothing, so in our perspective we could be dead hundreds or thousands of years and have no idea. When God resurrects us to us it is like we went to sleep last night and now just woke up. Others would fill us in on what happenned while we were dead.

  The wts teaches the resurrection will take place in a very orderly way so that as each group of people are resurrected there will already be ones they knew already alive to welcome them. This makes a lot of sense to me.
• 

  maksym

  @factfinder,

  I'm only going to try and make one post at this because I don't think it will do much good to change your mind, and this also this deals with religous philosophy and can get muddy and technical very easily. Please re-read what poster Leolaia said in her post about there being no continuity of existence. That is the key. She made a great post.

  No where in the Bible do we find the concept, in which JW's teach, that annihilation happens upon death. This is a pagan Buddist concept. It means we vanish out of existence when we die. We enter into a state of non-being just like we were before we were born. What JW's believe in is a re-creation not a resurrection. Allow me to explain the difference.

  In order for a resurrection to happen a part of the original must have continuity within the future restoration. Once the original is lost it cannot ontologically be made to be the original again, it is therefore an exact duplicate. THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE ORIGINAL.

  1. Before anyone was born they were in a state of non-existence.

  2. Assuming the Christian worldview, God then out of nothing, ex nihilo, creates you THE ORIGINAL and first of its kind.

  3. If you die; and let us concede to the JW view of death, you then enter into a state of non-existence, just like in step one. THE ORIGINAL IS LOST FOREVER.

  The "you" is the ORIGINAL, at present and now person, with its collection of parts and life experiences.

  The "you" is not just a collection of all of its parts and life experiences.

  I say this is because THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE ORIGINAL, after that it is just clones and copies like Leolaia posted and which gave an example.

  Because we have cells that constantly change shows that I am not bound by my body alone and that I have been made up of more than this. This is a great testament that we have a soul, meaning a spiritual soul that is uniquely integrated into my earthly body. My mind has no connection at all with my body yet it still matures and can control my body or my body can control my mind. Give glory to Jesus for making us this way. We are created in the image and likeness of Him.

  Here is an example to illustrate:

  1. Take a small piece of paper and write your name on it. This paper will represent "you" from original birth and will be exactly as you are sitting there today in every detail.

  2. Now take that piece of paper and crunch it up and put it in your left hand and hold it there. This will be you when you die and are supposedly annihilatied (JW doctrine)

  3. Now take another piece of paper and write your name in it. This will be the "person" that "represents" you sitting there right now in every detail at a re-creation. (JW dogma). Is this paper with your name on it you ? What's in your left hand? What does that represent in your left hand?

  The answer is the paper in your left hand represents the original that was lost and the new paper is a duplicate.

  Another illustration.

  Suppose a house burns down to the ground and all that is left is the foundation, chimney and some of the plumbing. Ninety-percent is gone. Now suppose contracters came and rebuilt the house to the same code and specs as before. I think it would be fair to say that the house was restored or rebuilt.

  Suppose the same house burns down and it gets leveled and every piece of it gets removed even the foundation along with all traces of it. The lot stays empty and weeds and trees grow up. Now after time a contracter comes in and builds a house again but he uses the same exact detail as the one that burnt down. I think it would be prudent to say that there is a new house there. The original was lost completely. This is a replicate or re-creation of the original.

  The important thing to remember is God cannot make two originals. It is an ontological imposibility. To illustrate God cannot make a circle a square at the same time. He cannot make a rock so big he cannot lift it. These are paradoxis and meaningless.

  YOU are the ORIGINAL and live at this moment. When you die your spirit is preserved by the hand of God and you are conscience of who you are.

  One of the most dangerous teachings of the Watchtower is that our soul dies when our body dies or that our body is our soul. Please do more research into this especially Christian teathings. Stay away from the cults. Study the Bible without the WT literature.

  Peace to you

  Maxym
• 

  maksym

  @factfinder,

  Okay I'll fudge a little and make another post. I couldn't resist.

  Scenario based upon Jw doctrine of annihilation.

  Suppose John is 25 years old today. Unfortunately he gets into a terrible accident and is sent into the hospital. He is lying on in his bed and gets a message from God.

  God says, "John, you've been a great servant but unfortunately you are going to die. However I have good news. I am going resurrect (re-create) you temporarily so that you may live again another 50 years. You only have 5 minutes left of this life, but to assure you that you will be safe I will show you how I will keep my promise."

  God then pulls the curtain back separating the two beds to reveal another John in exact detail lying in the bed next to the one He just spoke to.

  "This is YOU.", God says to the first John and adds, "I wanted to show you before you die that you are living again and will go on to live."

  Okay the original John now has about 2 minutes left to live. To say that when the first John dies he lives as himself as the second John is utter nonsense. This is the wacky theology of Watchtower world.

  Okay factfinder put yourself in the first John shoes. Your lying in bed and you got about two minutes left. Look over to your side. That guy over there is you in every minute detail. But you got just a few minutes of breath left. Does this theology really comfort you? What would be going through your mind if you were lying there. The YOU, the ORIGINAL is going to pass away forever for all eternity.

  It doesn't matter if God starts the process 5 minutes early in this situation or 1 million years later. When the original "you" is gone it cannot be brought back. Period.

  Peace

  Maksym
• 

  AnnOMaly

  factfinder:

  Jehovah created Adam from scratch- he can easily recreate a person who had already lived. As for the soul Genisis 2:7 shows Adam BECAME a soul. The Hebrew word rendered soul in the Bible, Nephesh means "A breather". We ARE the soul. We do not HAVE one!

  The 144,000 die. Jehovah resurrects them as spirit beings with the same personality, memories and traits they had before. Jehovah created angels. He can easily resurrect the 144,000 and give them spirit, and not human, bodies.

  We, like Adam, ARE souls and are 'breathers.' OK.

  So then, since the raised 144k are no longer 'breathers' and have no use for their physical bodies (without which they couldn't BE 'souls'), what precisely was resurrected in their case?
• 

  InterestedOne

  AnnOMaly: I asked my study conductor that question. He said Jehovah can create life, any kind of life. In the case of the 144K, he creates spiritual life for them. He creates spiritual bodies for them with the various memories & personality traits unique to each of them.
• 

  factfinder

  @maksym- Hi! You brought up some interesting thoughts.

  I think it is ironic that you feel the idea of our going out of existence at death is a PAGAN concept! I was taught the idea of an immortal soul was a pagan concept!

  It is not a pleasent thought to realize we no longer exist when we die. It is natural and understandable to feel there must be a part of us that continues on. If this was so, however, it would make the resurrection meaningless. And the Bible definately teaches there WILL be a resurrection. Acts 24:15; Isa.26:19(-my favorite scripture since my beloved Mom died.)

  When my brother and I began to study with jws we both believed we go to heaven when we die. For me what the jws taught was a major disappointment. But we were encouraged to see what every reference to the "soul" said in the Bible. I used a concordance and looked all of them up. It fit what jws teach about the soul. The soul is YOU. It eats, it sleeps, it dies, etc. Animals are souls too.

  There is nowhere in the Bible where it says there is an "immortal" soul. All souls die.

  Therefore, the question is, what makes us who we are? Our personality, thoughts, opinions, likes/dislikes, memories, experiences,etc. Where do these come from? Our mind. They are created by our brain. Our entire being therefore is what our brain creates. This is US!

  I understand your concern that what God would resurrect would be a copy, not us, not the "original". And the illustration you gave of lying in a hospital bed dying and God shows you a duplicate version of you lying in the next bed and tells you that you are about to die but the version of you in the other bed would go on- would this be a comfort?- is a good question. To answer: NO!

  I like the illustration of the house you gave. A reconstructed house compared to a brand new one built with the same blueprints and specs. In that case the "original" was burned down- the new one is not the one which burned down. True.

  But we are the sum of our thoughts and personality as I mentioned above.

  I do not have my ORIGINAL body. My cells died and replaced themselves many, many times in my life thus far, and will continue to do so until I die. If our cells did not at some point stop duplicating and replacing themselves, we would not die!

  But my point is- I am me. The same PERSON I always was. My body has changed many times in my life. The original I was born with is long gone. But my personality, my mind, thoughts, memories etc keep being recreated by my brain. It is programmed into my dna to be who I am. That is true of each of us.

  So I am not the 'Original" in that sense anyway! But, I am still ME!

  Those who do not accept the Bible teaching of what a "soul" (Nephesh/Psyke) is will not feel satisfied with my explanation- but it IS what the Bible says a SOUL is! Thus, it is merciful of God to remember us (very easy for him to do) and bring us back to life again via the resurrection! If we were not dead he could not resurrect us. The word rendered resurrection in the Bible means to stand up to life again.

  Thus, if we accept what the Bible really teaches regarding what the soul is and that it dies we would have great appreciation for the resurrection! If a part of us consciously survived death the resurection would be meaningless and unnessary.

  I don't know if I am addressing your idea satisfactorily enough to help you see that the original "you" will still be there when God resurrects you. We are made of the elements of the ground. We eat foods like cereal that contain various metals and elements from the ground to give our cells the building blocks they need to repair and reproduce/replace themselves. Our bodies are not the "ORIGINALS". But our mind is- our personality, traits etc are! That is what makes us US! That is what the SOUL is as described by the Bible and the original Hebrew and Greek words. When God resurrects us- what made us who we are will be the same.

  @AnnOmaly-

  Hi! I agree with InterestedOne's answer regarding the 144,000. Again it is our mind, personality , traits, etc.that make us who we are. Jehovah is the CREATOR of LIFE. He can create any kind of life! In the case of the 144,000 it is no problem for him to create spirit bodies for them with their same personality, etc- they would still be the SAME PERSON they were- just a different body.

  But we ALL have different bodies throughout our lives! We are not clones though, are we?

  I hope I explained this well.