I think someone should define "clone" to help the discussion. I don't have time at the moment.
The Soul
by free2beme 39 Replies latest jw friends
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maksym
@factfinder
Thank you for responding and also thank you for not reverting to ad hominem attacks. I am a Christian now but was once a Jehovah's Witness. I find the doctrine of annihilation very disturbing. Currently I am working on a psychology degree and have studied religious philosophy a few times. You seem like a nice person, however without offense, I think you have not studied the Bible and other sources to understand just how different the Jehovah's witnesses are and how Pagan they are. It was a surprise to me and probably might be to you if you looked into ancient first century Christianity to see the differences.
To respond;
I think it is ironic that you feel the idea of our going out of existence at death is a PAGAN concept! I was taught the idea of an immortal soul was a pagan concept!- quote from factfinder
Anything of origin that is not "truth" to a JW is considered pagan. In Christianity pagan just means something that is not truth the origin is irrelevant. A good example is that the Egyptians had an ark similar to the Hebrews. The Hebrews changed the meaning but used the concept. The ark of the covenant is an example of something made Holy from a pagan concept. But I must digress because this is a different topic. The idea of an immortal soul IS a pagan concept. You are correct. Mankind does not have an immortal soul. However, God by His grace preserves our soul so that we may enter into his kingdom. It is by His grace that the soul remains. It is not by its NATURE alone. I agree the immortal soul is a pagan idea and is false. It is to say that the fleshly body dies but can be preserved a while longer by the advances of modern medicine. God preserves the soul the same way.
It is not a pleasant thought to realise we no longer exist when we die. It is natural and understandable to feel there must be a part of us that continues on. If this was so, however, it would make the resurrection meaningless. And the Bible definitely teaches there WILL be a resurrection. Acts 24:15; Isa.26:19(-my favorite scripture since my beloved Mom died.)
I am sorry to hear about your mom. May God grant her mercy and may she rest in peace. I will pray for her; another topic. You are correct the Bible does teach there will be a resurrection. I believe this too. In fact my church teaches there will be a bodily resurrection. When we die we do not just go to some ethereal state in the heavens to become like angels until a future time. This is not the teaching of the Bible either. We are bodily and physically resurrected but we must have a piece of ourselves to carry with us into that. That is the you and is your soul.
When my brother and I began to study with jws we both believed we go to heaven when we die. For me what the jws taught was a major disappointment. But we were encouraged to see what every reference to the "soul" said in the Bible. I used a concordance and looked all of them up. It fit what jws teach about the soul. The soul is YOU. It eats, it sleeps, it dies, etc. Animals are souls too.
The Biblical teaching is that we enter into the state of the kingdom when we die. What the JW's taught to me was a disappointment as well. Their appeal is to a fleshly physical universe. People can relate to that and it can be illustrated in magazines very easily. Jesus said my kingdom is no part of the world and there are scriptures saying that no eye nor hear has seen or heard nor the thoughts of man conceived what the kingdom entails. I'm not saying that the kingdom is physical it actually is but not like the JW's teach. True ancient Christianity traditionally taught of a bodily resurrection. I believe I will have a new body the moment I die. My soul will be carried into it and preserved by God. My body here on earth will decay. Animals are souls too but only humans are created in the image and likeness of God. God preserves by His grace the human soul whilst the animal soul perishes. The animal part is debatable however as to what God does with it.
Therefore, the question is, what makes us who we are? Our personality, thoughts, opinions, likes/dislikes, memories, experiences,etc. Where do these come from? Our mind. They are created by our brain. Our entire being therefore is what our brain creates. This is US!
You are correct to entertain this question and I can’t explain everything here. But needless to say what JW’s teach is a philosophical position of naturalism. This is an invention of man. It simply means “us” or “you” are a collection of the biological processes that occur on an everyday basis. The memories in this system and your thoughts then are generated by your physical counterpart. That is naturalism in a nutshell. The “you” are an extension of this biological process.
However Christianity teaches, and has always taught that we are both a spiritual being and a physical being fused together into one being. They act upon each other and cannot be separated. It is our very nature. We are spiritual and undefined by science yet remain definable in a physical sense by empirical evidence. We are a two-fold creation. We are angelic and we are physical at the same moment.
But we are the sum of our thoughts and personality as I mentioned above.
Yes we are. But we are more than just “thoughts” and “memories”. As other posters have written. We could just as well be a recording. When we die the recording stops and we get placed into a memory bank to be uploaded again into another shell (a duplicate body). We are much more than this and God loves us too much to treat us this way. He cares that we are preserved at death.
I do not have my ORIGINAL body. My cells died and replaced themselves many, many times in my life thus far, and will continue to do so until I die. If our cells did not at some point stop duplicating and replacing themselves, we would not die!
Correct! and neither do I. This shows that the “you” or the essence of you still remain. What is that essence? It is your soul. Your argument above actually supports that we have a soul that is not entirely dependent on the physical body and can survive multiple regenerations. To refute your argument I could easily say that you died already many times but I’m sure you realise this is not true. The ORIGINAL you is still there. It is your spiritual soul.
But my point is- I am me. The same PERSON I always was. My body has changed many times in my life. The original I was born with is long gone. But my personality, my mind, thoughts, memories etc keep being recreated by my brain. It is programmed into my dna to be who I am. That is true of each of us.
You are correct again. You are the same PERSON as always. The fact that your body changed does not mean your soul was affected. Your mind, personality, thoughts, memories and its integration into your pattern of thinking IS your soul or what modern science would refer to as “the mind”. Your DNA has changed many times. To concede to your position would be to say you have died every time your body regenerated. Are you willing to say you have died already because your body regenerated every cell? Have you died already? Hmmm.
So I am not the 'Original" in that sense anyway! But, I am still ME!
You are the original most certainly! You do not have your original body. Your essence or your soul or spiritual state is still intact and it is THE original “you”. Your soul is “you”, not your body.
Those who do not accept the Bible teaching of what a "soul" (Nephesh/Psyke) is will not feel satisfied with my explanation- but it IS what the Bible says a SOUL is! Thus, it is merciful of God to remember us (very easy for him to do) and bring us back to life again via the resurrection! If we were not dead he could not resurrect us. The word rendered resurrection in the Bible means to stand up to life again.
Putting exegesis aside for the moment I must say that it is a merciful and loving God that allows sinful humans to be preserved unto a resurrection and not unto a re-creation. Yes, we stand up again in flesh but that holds with it that we are preserved until that time. What a loving God we have to be able to by the grace of His love cherish our soul until that time when we can stand up again in bodily form, with a new and glorified body just like Jesus had when he was resurrected. Glory be to Him.
Thus, if we accept what the Bible really teaches regarding what the soul is and that it dies we would have great appreciation for the resurrection! If a part of us consciously survived death the resurection would be meaningless and unnessary.
Again a common misconception of the witnesses is that if we survive death in “some” mystical way then we cannot appreciate the resurrection. Don’t get me wrong death is sorrowful and it is not the nature or path of mankind. It tears at us and rents us asunder. But through Christ we have ETERNAL life and can live again in the kingdom. I truly appreciate the resurrection even though I will die someday. Death is necessary for our sins and we pay the price for them by death. All men die but through Christ we have victory over death because He resurrects us in glory. The resurrection is necessary because without it we would be in the “pit” or Sheol. The kingdom has come. It is now!
I don't know if I am addressing your idea satisfactorily enough to help you see that the original "you" will still be there when God resurrects you. We are made of the elements of the ground. We eat foods like cereal that contain various metals and elements from the ground to give our cells the building blocks they need to repair and reproduce/replace themselves. Our bodies are not the "ORIGINALS". But our mind is- our personality, traits etc are! That is what makes us US! That is what the SOUL is as described by the Bible and the original Hebrew and Greek words. When God resurrects us- what made us who we are will be the same.
You said it yourself that our minds are the originals and our personality, traits, etc., And you said that that is what makes us “us”. Well, you are correct but if you are annihilated then that is no longer the original. Currently your “mind, personality, traits, etc.,” are all part of your soul. Yes, it is original but your body is not. If your mind dies then you are extinguished and cannot be the original,l however your “soul” is preserved. Good proof of this is how you brought out that your body is not the original but your “mind, etc.,” is. Factfinder still has an original soul but not an original body. True.
Factfinder you seem like a nice and intelligent person but I don’t think I will convince you that ontologically it is impossible the position that you hold. You also mentioned that you studied with the JW’s. How much time was that involved? I would encourage you to go seek out all sources at your local library on philosophy of religion and ancient Christianity to crosscheck the data. Count how many hours are involved in your “indoctrination” into the witnesses and then counter that with your own studies.
As mentioned before I am a student of philosophy and psychology and can tell very quickly that most JW’s are under coercive persuasion techniques. Please PM me if you need any help. I’ll leave this thread alone for now. I will give you my phone number if need be.
May the Lord (jehovah) bless you in your journey,
Maksym -
maksym
@ Interested one,
A clone is defined as an exact representation or copy of the original object.
In biology a clone is the exact genetic representation of the mother organism.
In dealing with JW theology the mother organism is the "you" or the "original" creation (birth) of you. The clone therefore would be anything "created" or "re-created" after the orginal you.
JW's believe God will clone them in the new system and that it will actually be "them". Yet the "them", or mother (original) organism(s), will cease to exist long ago.
Very sad. It is the main reason I got out. I don't believe this. What a cruel god in this theology.
Peace
Maksym
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factfinder
@maksym- you bring out many interesting ideas. And thank you very much for your kind thoughts regarding my Mom!
You feel you can not convince me that the jw ideas are wrong. That is not true. I have doubts and am questioning everything. I am trying to figure out what to believe! I will send you a PM. Thanks!
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AnnOMaly
factfinder:
Hi! I agree with InterestedOne's answer regarding the 144,000. Again it is our mind, personality , traits, etc.that make us who we are. Jehovah is the CREATOR of LIFE. He can create any kind of life! In the case of the 144,000 it is no problem for him to create spirit bodies for them with their same personality, etc- they would still be the SAME PERSON they were- just a different body.
But we ALL have different bodies throughout our lives! We are not clones though, are we?
That is the conundrum, ff and IO. If the 'personality' has ceased to exist and has to be recreated as well as the body, is it truly a 'standing up again' (resurrection) or is it something new - a re-creation? I.e. is it really 'you' or a copy of 'you'? I know others have already put that to you.
But anyway, regarding the 144k (and thinking specifically about the WTS' idea where members of the heavenly class who die post-1918 are immediately resurrected to heaven), if their 'person' or 'personality' can dispense with their previous body and be clothed with a spirit body instead, then obviously there is something of them that is able to exist apart from the physical, soulical body. Therefore, the claim cannot be made that 'person' = 'soul.'
If, in the 144k's case, 'person' does not = 'soul,' what about the rest of humanity's nature?
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InterestedOne
AnnOMaly wrote:
If, in the 144k's case, 'person' does not = 'soul,' what about the rest of humanity's nature?
I asked my conductor that one too. He said that, in the case of the 144K, they die, cease to exist, just like anyone else. However, "in the twinkling of an eye," new immortal spirit beings are created in heaven with the same memories and personality traits corresponding to those individuals. He said these spirit beings are -not- souls because they are immortal - they cannot die. The people in the paradise earth will be souls - it will still be possible for them to die if they sin - Jehovah will kill them instantly. However, the 144K spirit beings in heaven can never die because they are immortal.
BTW, I agree that this all sounds like cloning, and when the WT introduces the idea of cloning, they create a problem when one naturally asks if the copy is the original.
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AnnOMaly
LOL. The 'cloning' problem aside, the fact remains that the 144k's natures must be somehow 'splitable' - the 'person' or 'personality' can exist apart from the physical, soulical body.
And yet:
Awake! 82 4/22 p. 27 Are You Immortal?
According to the account of creation recorded at Genesis 2:7, Adam was formed from the dust of the ground and "the man came to be a living soul." Therefore the Bible often uses the expression "his soul" to refer to the person "himself" as in the case of young David: "Jonathan began to love him as his own soul [as himself]." (1 Samuel 18:1) Commenting on this, The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says: "To such a degree is the soul a summing of the whole personality, of the whole self of a person, that 'soul' can be equivalent to 'I myself' or 'yourself' (1 Samuel 18:1). In Genesis 2:7 [soul] means 'person' or 'being.'"
Awake! 75 8/8 p. 27 What Is the Soul?
Consequently, we cannot separate the body from the personality, as though the personality were something spiritual or immaterial inside the person, and could exist apart from the body. ...
... The soul, then, is indeed the entire person, every fiber of his being, along with his characteristics-his entire personality.
But after having said this, there are these surprising comments,
Insight 2, p. 786 Resurrection
Resurrection of Christ's "brothers." ..... They must undergo a change of nature, giving up human nature to obtain "divine" nature, thus sharing with Christ in his glory. They must die a death like Christ's-maintaining integrity and giving up human life forever-and then they receive immortal, incorruptible bodies like Christ's by a resurrection. (Ro 6:3-5; 1Co 15:50-57; 2Co 5:1-3) The apostle Paul explains that it is not the body that is resurrected, but rather, he likens their experience to the planting and sprouting of a seed, in that "God gives it a body just as it has pleased him." (1Co 15:35-40) It is the soul, the person, that is resurrected, with a body to suit the environment into which God resurrects him.
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Satanus
'It is the soul, the person, that is resurrected, with a body to suit the environment into which God resurrects him.'
Oops. No way out of that.
S
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factfinder
very interesting...
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still thinking
Hi Factfinder,
I like your processing. I too have studied for some years now on and off with witnesses and have got to the stage where i think some of their teaching makes sense but dont like the heirachy. Governing body formula ie 144,000 and anointed theory.
I am also looking for truth and really get concerned when people have just swapped one religion for another then try to preach their new religious beliefs like they are facts. (I was becoming guilty of this myself so speak from experience)
Personally I don't think anything is impossible for our creator. After all....he even created our SOUL. Think about that. If you think it is amazing that he created Heaven and earth and bodies and plants and animals etc etc...how much more amazing is it that he is capable of creating a soul!!! And as mere humans with our limited knowledge we presumptuously take it upon ourselves to decide if he can bring us back to life. If he can give us our old bodies back or if you believe the soul goes to heaven...that he can change us to spirit creatures.
For me at the moment, the one saying I do like of the JW's is that the truth is getting brighter. Because for me it is. But not through the annointed or any other religion created by man. But by faith and a belief that if I truly want to know the truth and not what I want to hear or believe, God or Jesus will show it to me because anything we ask according to his will he will give us.
So it comes down to what is in our hearts, and he knows this. I have to keep a check on mine to make sure I don't go off on too many tangents.
He shall prove to be what he shall prove to be and we should not forget this. In our lifetimes we can only hope to touch on the Glory that is God. He knew we wouldn't be able to cope with the full facts thats why we have enough to keep our search for him going. And as far as I am concerned it is that search that is important and the condition of our heart during that search.
So may God bless your search, I look forward to reading some more of your comments.
(these are only my personal feelings on the matter at the moment. Not facts set in stone. And of course since I am continually learning some of these feeling may be different tomorrow. But today, this is how I feel)