Happy JW Marriages the Impossible Dream?

by IslandWoman 43 Replies latest social family

  • Introspection
    Introspection
    You have some valid points, but I think it is absurd to assume that the entire JW community is putting on an "act." I'm sure many are, but there are probably just as many who truly desire to please God, and their families.

    Amac, I don't think every individual in the JW community is putting on an act, however I think the fact that the organization as a whole places such emphasis on behavior, the outer appearances is very significant. It's not about the people who happens to be involved with the organization at any given point in time, but rather the organization itself and how it functions. I do believe there are sincere people, I myself really believed it when I was a witness. And of course, their reason for being good husbands and wifes are not necessarily all external.

    And of course it is "idolatry", although that is not a good descriptive, but I understand what your point is. We all are influenced by something or someone, whether you follow Ayn Rand or the Bible. I see nothing wrong with people following the Bible, or Leave it to Beaver for that matter.
    Regardless of the word of choice, if one "follows" I think they fall into that category. I'm sure you remember talk about bible principles being thrown around from the podium, but why is it that there's so much confusion when it comes to conscience matters, if they really understand the principles? In response to your statement about following the bible and such, I don't think there's anything "wrong" with it, because I don't see it as a question of right and wrong. However, as I was saying it is simply rather lifeless if you just stick to a model. It's like an artist who has been through art school but can only produce works that look like copies of the past masters, and yet there is nothing that can be called his own. I think any aspect of life is similar to this. In the same way, when we look at this desire to be right, do the right things a husband or wife are supposed to do, etc., then you become fixated on this standard rather than acting with any kind of insight.

    In fact, isn't this why we have religions deviating from the original core message, important qualities like love and such? It's really rather typical. If nothing else, when you have so many specific rules or strong suggestions on how people are supposed to behave, then you are steering away from the importance of understanding the principles. It's like the whole authoritarian parenting model. If people don't come to maturity here individually, how can they have a good marriage? I'll even grant you that two people may get along at that same level, but it's just kind of sad that neither of them reached their potential by holding this narrow view of living life in the 'right' 'way'.

  • amac
    amac

    Xander -

    but if the OVERALL affect of the WT advice results in 'failure'...I have found in my travels, though, it is the exception rather than the rule.

    Unfortunately, since we are both using our personal experience as our evidence, we cannot verify this either way without extensive work. My experience, through my "travels" has been the exact opposite. The COMPLETE opposite.

    you did say the WT only 'helped' - I had read your above post to mean that the WT was the reason, which was the point I was argueing.
    The "help" IS the "reason." An alcoholic can say, "AA is the reason I was able to stop drinking." Of course, we know that it is not the only reason, but that wouldn't disqualify his statement. I can effectively say that the teaching of the WT is the reason my parents have a happy marriage. If he had gone to another religion, he may not have agreed with their doctrinal beliefs and woudn't have followed any of their advice. Since he became a JW, he did follow their teachings and what they taught him about marriage was a benefit.

    How many marriages have you been in? 1? Right. The problem with the society's solution is that is makes the marriage LOOK like a success to everyone but whose in it. Indeed, the participants in the marriage will tell their closest friends only how happy they are. In fact, they probably continually tell THEMSELVES how happy they are. "Really, I'm happy". "This is a godly marriage, and that brings me peace". "I'm supposed to be filled with joy, and I am". "A three-fold cord can't easily be broken, and so our marriage is strong". While looking into a mirror trying to force a smile.

    Maybe you DO have a happy marriage applying WT counsel. Good for you. I have found in my travels, though, it is the exception rather than the rule.

    You are either making the assumption that a good number of JWs are unhappy in their marriage or you have actually talked to a lot of JWs who have told you they are not happy. I will use the same reasoning many have used against happy JW marriages...if they are unhappy in their marriage as JWs, they would probably be unhappy in their marriages if they WEREN'T JWs.

    Again, my point is that the WT direction to married couples in most cases seems to help (from my experiences.)

    I'm sorry, this is just idiotic. Why don't you ask a women, any women, why she has a problem with the concept of her being inferior
    Submissive does NOT equal inferior. Just ask Hyghlander.

    Ever once here an elder EVER mention time to sit down and have a nice dinner, and NOT TALK ABOUT RELIGION or spirituality? Just thoughts, goals, feelings?
    I don't think an elder would ever discourage a couple from talking about the Bible, but I HAVE heard elders encourage talking about thoughts, goals and feelings.

    Joy2bfree -

    As IW pointed out and Intro, marriages in the Borg are programmed; they don’t deal with feelings or emotions.
    Of course they are programmed, they try and program them according to the bible, it is up to the individuals to take that "program" and add the love and kindness to it. I have consistently seen the WT encourage the dealing of feelings and emotions between marriage mates, just because people have difficulty applying this does not mean the information is not there.

    I have a brother and a sister whose marriage is just in word only. They and their spouses don’t share the same bedroom and hardly talk to each other.
    Sounds like they are not following the advice of the WT and the Bible. I've never seen any WT that says if you don't get along, just live in seperate rooms. I would think they have some problems they need to deal with and are choosing not to. That is not encouraged by the WT.

    Take the time, while you and everyone that is lurking here, to really look at yourself. Being honest with yourself and what you believe is the beginning of freedom not the parroting of someone else’s beliefs and actions.
    Please do not assume that I am a "lost sheep" and that you are one of the "enlightened" who is here to nudge me along. I would make a guess that you have jumped from the frying pan into another frying pan if you went from being a JW thinking everyone else was wrong to a ex-JW thinking JWs are wrong and need to be enlightened. I am completely agnostic and always eager to learn, I realize that everyone one in the world can be enlightened on a daily basis. I am also not foolish enough to think that anything I say or do is so original that I am not "parroting someone else's beliefs." I have yet to meet someone who has risen above this.
  • amac
    amac

    Introspection -
    I must get back to work now, but I understand your post. My only response is...not everyone is a good artist.

  • Xander
    Xander

    You are either making the assumption that a good number of JWs are unhappy in their marriage or you have actually talked to a lot of JWs who have told you they are not happy

    The problem with JWs who claim they are happy in their marriage is the same as the alcoholic you mention a few times. If you asked an alcoholic if he has a drinking problem, he's going to lie to you. Because he needs to for his own sanity.

    Hence, the only people valid to talk to for 'JW marriage success stories' are those who are no longer JWs.

    With the apparent exception of YOU, I've never met an ex-JW who was happier with their marriage IN the org than they were with it OUTSIDE the org.

    Which tells me that the WT's marriage policy is a failure.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • Xander
    Xander

    Of course, we know that it is not the only reason, but that wouldn't disqualify his statement

    Depends on your audience. If you are talking a person who went to AA, but is still an alcoholic, and tell them that, they will assume they can't be helped and go off and kill their liver.

    If you explain AA is NOT the ONLY thing that was the reason, but the person had to be willing to change to begin with, then they might still have hope.

    To bring it into this example - saying the JWs were the REASON your parents marriage succeeded could cause someone reading this now with a rocky marriage to figure 'hey, I'll go join this cult, and it will fix my marriage'. Which is completely false.

    Submissive does NOT equal inferior

    Yes, but the WT teaches the wife IS inferior - 'an inferior vessel, the weaker one'. Go tell a woman she is inferior and weaker than man and she should be more submissive and see how long your relationship lasts. The only time it will work is if she is already brainwashed to think this attitude is okay. Hint: look for someone wearing a burka.

    I HAVE heard elders encourage talking about thoughts, goals and feelings

    That DON'T involve the WT? Really? Not 'goals pertaining to what to do in the new system'? Or 'feelings about when your entire family will be destroyed'?

    Well, that's a pleasant surprise.

    Of course they are programmed....

    I can't understand how you are trying to justify this as an acceptable answer in any way, shape, or form.

    dealing of feelings and emotions between marriage mates

    But, only WITHIN THEIR RULES! The society counsels AGAINST marriage counselling, etc., which can really help people.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • amac
    amac
    Depends on your audience. If you are talking a person who went to AA, but is still an alcoholic, and tell them that, they will assume they can't be helped and go off and kill their liver.

    If you explain AA is NOT the ONLY thing that was the reason, but the person had to be willing to change to begin with, then they might still have hope.

    You have taken this illustration off on a tangent. What you said above still does not disqualify the original statement by drunk #1. For him, AA was the reason he stopped drinking. Anyhow, we are really arguing about semantics. My point again is that the WT offers helpful guidance on dealing with a marriage. This information has been the "reason" or the "helper" for many marriages to stay together.

    saying the JWs were the REASON your parents marriage succeeded could cause someone reading this now with a rocky marriage to figure 'hey, I'll go join this cult, and it will fix my marriage'. Which is completely false.
    You are right, from now on I will attach a disclaimer to all experiences saying, "Disclaimer for all who have a hard time discerning...this experience is not guaranteed to happen in every situation." But I'll be sure to put it in smaller print.

    Yes, but the WT teaches the wife IS inferior - 'an inferior vessel, the weaker one'
    I did a search on my WT CD and found 0 results for "inferior vessel"..in fact I found the following 7/1 1983 Watchtower regarding 1 Pet 3:7:
    "But woman's role as a complement does not make her an inferior creature."

    The weaker vessel bit is straight from the Bible (1 Pet 3:7.) So you can only fault the WT for using that if you are going to fault them for following the Bible (which is ridiculous since they are a religion based on the Bible.)

    That DON'T involve the WT? Really? Not 'goals pertaining to what to do in the new system'? Or 'feelings about when your entire family will be destroyed'?
    Yes. Do I need to post article examples? I would prefer not as I have the WT Library on another puter with no internet access and I really don't feel like going throught the trouble of posting them here. Perhaps you have the CD and can look for yourself.

    Of course they are programmed....

    I can't understand how you are trying to justify this as an acceptable answer in any way, shape, or form.

    Because you are looking at this word as a negative buzzword denoting mind control. I look at the word "program" and think of its definition: a plan of action for achieving something. Yes, the WT is "programming" people by giving them info that is supposed to help them have a happy marriage.

    The society counsels AGAINST marriage counselling, etc., which can really help people.
    That is not true. They DO continually emphasize that the Bible offers the best counsel, but as far as marriage counselors go, I could only find articles that warned against picking just any counselor. I'm sure most certified and reputable marriage counselors agree with this as there are a lot of counselors out there who have no idea what they are doing. Would you go to a counselor that has been married and divorced 5 times?
  • amac
    amac

    Sorry, missed your first post...

    The problem with JWs who claim they are happy in their marriage is the same as the alcoholic you mention a few times. If you asked an alcoholic if he has a drinking problem, he's going to lie to you. Because he needs to for his own sanity.

    Hence, the only people valid to talk to for 'JW marriage success stories' are those who are no longer JWs.

    Now you are comparing the characteristics of an alcoholic to those of JWs and basing a conclusion on that. That's a bit of a stretch...funny, but definitely a stretch.

    I've never met an ex-JW who was happier with their marriage IN the org than they were with it OUTSIDE the org.
    I've met plenty, they're the ones who usually try to get reinstated or re-active. That's why you don't find them in this on-line community.
  • Xander
    Xander

    The weaker vessel bit is straight from the Bible (1 Pet 3:7.) So you can only fault the WT for using that if you are going to fault them for following the Bible (which is ridiculous since they are a religion based on the Bible.)

    I do, in fact, fault them for following the bible, which is an archaic book written by uneducated and biased men. And, in any case, they don't even follow ALL the bible (remember, none of the OT rules really apply today), so why not omit this part?

    EDIT: any by 'omit this part', I mean, stop teaching that women need to be submissive or treated in any way as having a different status than men - women can't give public talks or major parts, conduct watchtower/bookstudies, must wear something on her head when performing spiritual activities in the presence of her husband or a brother (why not make her wear this ALL the time, and make it cover the WHOLE head.....), etc.

    they're the ones who usually try to get reinstated or re-active

    Uhhh...if they are trying to get re-instated or re-active, they aren't really what you'd call an 'ex-jw' now, are they? That they are still obviously under the WT mind control means statements they make regarding their 'WT marriage' are not valid. In fact, they are ESPECIALLY invalid.

    It seems most witnesses trying to get back into 'the fold' are all "yeah, the world sucks, is terrible, is immoral, corrupting, evil, debased, never had any good experiences, was just like the org said it would be..."

    I wouldn't exactly call such a person's opinion ubiased.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • Xander
    Xander

    That's a bit of a stretch...funny, but definitely a stretch.

    Not THAT much of a stretch. They have a destructive habit that they are in denial about.

    That it can be biological in one case, and not the other is an interesting difference, but....the behaviour is the same.

    An alcoholic will deny he is an alcoholic just as vehemently as a JW will deny he is in a cult. THEY don't have a problem - it's everyone else.

    Xander F
    (Unseen Apostate Directorate of North America - Ohio order)

    A fanatic is one who, upon losing sight of his goals, redoubles his efforts.
    --George Santayana

  • LDH
    LDH
    The weaker vessel bit is straight from the Bible (1 Pet 3:7.) So you can only fault the WT for using that if you are going to fault them for following the Bible (which is ridiculous since they are a religion based on the Bible.)

    AHHHH yes! The Bible! That forward-thinking compendium of higher thought! [8>]

    Yes, the BIBLE!!!! The Chronicle of how a mean, jealous angry God all of a sudden got happy!!! when his son was killed! [8>]

    If JWs are going to start following the Bible, I'm gonna be the first one to suggest they re-read the portions such as:

    Make it your aim to live quietly and MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS

    and

    First remove the rafter from your own eye, then you can see clearly how to remove the rafter from your brother's!!!

    PLEASE, let's not get into a dispute about the value of a millenia-old book in today's world.

    Lisa

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