Why I no longer believe the Bible is "God's Word" and I no longer believe in "God"

by lifeisgood 79 Replies latest jw friends

  • lifeisgood
    lifeisgood

    pontoon,

    No, mankind does not have the characteristics of the First Cause. This is impossible. The First Cause existed when there was no matter, only energy. Humans are not energy beings, we are material beings. We are not infinite, we are finite. The story that God made man in his image is a lie. The First Cause has no gender. The First Cause is not from our universe, there is no way that we can be like the First Cause. The First Cause has never contacted humans, does it even know we are here? Does it care?

    I'm not sure if human violence is caused because we are humans or because we are "civilized".

    I had a lot of very serious health problems and sometimes I could not work. I lived on a Sioux Indian reservation for a while while I was being treated by one of the medicine men and Little Dove In The Snow (a sort of medicine woman?). They saved my life. Little Dove told me that I should travel and visit other aboriginal people. So, I did. I found tribes that could not fathom the concept of lying or violence or hurting or cheating or stealing. It made them, not upset exactly, but just sit very still and be quiet. Like the ideas were so horrific they just could not respond to it at all.

    I have never met a "civilized" person who acted like this or responded to evil like this.

    I think that perhaps humans in their aboriginal state do not lie or steal or cheat or harm or murder. Only civilized humans do these things.

    So, perhaps the fault is not in being human, it is in being "civilized".

  • OnTheWayOut
    OnTheWayOut

    Not to derail, but rather to add to this thread's ideas, I want to address Tammy.

    You seem to want the best of all worlds as far as Christ and the Bible goes. You can dismiss the Old Testament because it paints a picture of a cruel God, but you want whatever is good in Christ to remain.

    DId Jesus come from the heavenly realms as Christianity and the Bible seem to indicate? Was he just an enlightened man like the stories of Buddha seem to indicate? Where do you draw the line on myth and fact? Why? If Jesus was "from God," did he quote the Bible as if it were not myth or is that part of the myth? How do we distinguish where Jesus ends and Christ begins? It's a vicious circle. The whole "virgin birth" story and fulfillment of OT scriptures thing was nicely written to boost the myth. Without such writings being more than myth, was Jesus any more worthy of a following than Buddha or Confusicous or Lao Tzu?

    If the OT is myth, then any possible real Jesus was promoting worship of a myth. If it was a myth, then we can dismiss it. If it was his own personal ideas of worship, then yours, mine, and Life Is Good's ideas are just as valid.

  • pontoon
    pontoon

    I was just saying the way it is stated in the bible. That man was created in God's image. There are also violent uncivilized humans also, headhunters, canibals.... The thing of it is that not knowing anything about First Cause, God, bibical stories, why a 'God' doesn't communicate with humans.....etc, FOR SURE, we might be debating which fantasy is the right one. No point to my fantasy is better than your fantasy. Anyway, dont't think I disagreeing with you, I'm not, a lot of what you say are things that added to my reasons to try to quietly fade away.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    OTWO, if I may:

    I suggest reading this book by Kenneth Sparks: God's word in Human Word's.

    The bible is but ONE representation of God ( Jesus and the universe being the others), the bible is not just ONE thing and nothing else.

    I know all JW's are brought up believing that it is ALL literal AND concrete or NONE of it is, but that has NEVER been the case.

    Here is another exmple:

    http://biologos.org/blog/what-do-you-mean-by-literal/

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    OTWO, those are some tough questions. I think the ultimate answer to all that is personal faith.

    -Sab

  • tec
    tec

    OTWO,

    I don't dismiss the OT at all. I dismiss the parts of the OT that contradict the truth of Christ, as being false. Because Christ is the truth. Even the bible says that, so even if your faith is based purely on the bible, you should come to the same conclusion. IMO. We know that men mess up and twist/distort the truth, sometimes to their own ends, sometimes based on misunderstandings. We know this because it happens now, and we can see that just by taking a look around the world.

    I'll answer each of your questions with what I believe in this form, I guess:

    DId Jesus come from the heavenly realms as Christianity and the Bible seem to indicate?

    I believe so.

    Was he just an enlightened man like the stories of Buddha seem to indicate?

    I believe he was an enlightened man, but more... so not just, no.

    Where do you draw the line on myth and fact?

    I don't know. I keep an open mind on any story being myth or fact in the OT, and instead concentrate on the moral being relayed from the story. As for Christ, I concentrate on what He taught us. How to love. How to act. How to see His Father, and the truth.

    Why?

    Because I don't know for sure which is supposed to be myth, and which is supposed to be fact. I don't think it matters, because the moral or lesson remains the same... though we don't always grasp that, or we have different ideas about it. But that would be the same whether the story was myth or fact, anyway.

    I also don't know for sure which stories the Israelites considered myth or fact. Or even, for that matter, which ones Christ considered myth or fact. Because it was the lesson inside the story that mattered.

    If Jesus was "from God," did he quote the Bible as if it were not myth or is that part of the myth?

    See above, I think. Christ could have quoted facts... and he could also have quoted myth, knowing the people understood that it was the moral that mattered. Even if they thought something was real when it was myth, he could just have been using something that they could understand. All of these things, I keep in mind.

    I do, however, tend to believe that if he quoted something, it is real. But I understand that the above things might also be true.

    Jesus quoted from scripture, though (as a side note), which all of the bible is not.

    How do we distinguish where Jesus ends and Christ begins?

    I don't know what you mean. How did the man become the christ?

    By his teachings and his example, by God, and also by the fulfillment of scripture (though that is more for our benefit, I think). If this is what you were asking, that is.

    The whole "virgin birth" story and fulfillment of OT scriptures thing was nicely written to boost the myth.

    Yes, perhaps in some instances. I have to think that some quotes were added in to boost 'credulity', but those instances are easy to spot. Sort of like what the WTS does, adding in a quote that has nothing to do with what the passage is talking about. But I don't need those few scriptures added in to see, and I wish they had not been added in as 'padding'. Christ stands without them.

    I'm not certain that the virgin birth is necessary, or if it is padding, or if it is a myth carried into Christianity from other sources (and we know that did happen in other things, such as Christmas). But nothing hinges on it, imo, so I am content to let it be something I don't know, and concentrate on the things that matter: Christ's teaching and example.

    Without such writings being more than myth, was Jesus any more worthy of a following than Buddha or Confusicous or Lao Tzu?

    If Christ was just a myth (and even if not), then the people who follow him will be those who respond to what he had to say... same as the others above. I do think that there is a lot of peace and serenity in buddhism, as taught by those above. I just don't think that buddhism promotes love in as strong a way as Christ, and the peace is more of a detached one in buddhism, whereas with Christ it is more active. These are just my impressions, and what I learned for myself.

    Hope I answered everything. I didn't realize that I had been giving the impression that I thought the OT was a myth. I don't. Just some stories in it perhaps- like parables or fables - and some exaggerations as well, as legends tend to be written as... and that has to be expected of ANY history from those times, and other cultures.

    Tammy

  • unshackled
    unshackled

    PSac: Fascinating and it has been prove to be incorrect over and over and the 20th century is a prime example of such. But go ahead and keeping saying it, they say if you say soemthing enough and enough people believe it, then it must be true.

    Sure there are other means that coerce good people to do bad things. But religion is hands down the tried and true champion of that...with centuries of proof.

    When believers feel the need to apologize for and defend religion they are never defending ALL religions, only their own.

  • tec
    tec
    When believers feel the need to apologize for and defend religion they are never defending ALL religions, only their own.

    That is untrue. I don't think Psac is defending only christianity, anyway. I know that I am not. I just think the statement is absolutely false. I don't have to defend religion to think that. I just have to look at the rest of the world. Greed. Fear - (particularly fear of losing one's own life). Pain ( a desperate person might do anything to ease that pain). Even love can be used to get a good person to do bad things. Doesn't have to be love for religion. Could be love for anything. Jealousy. Drugs and other addictions. Brainwashing through politics as well, and yes also religion.

    Then there are good people who do bad things, and also bad people who do good things (sometimes even because of religion *gasp*, and the rules that they need in order to act appropriately)

    Religion can get 'good' people to do bad things. But so can so many other things. So as general statements go, it is as bad as all the others.

    Tammy

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Sure there are other means that coerce good people to do bad things. But religion is hands down the tried and true champion of that...with centuries of proof.

    It's a numbers game that no one wins, but if you want to compare atrocites commited by believers VS those commited by non-believer, go right ahead.

    When believers feel the need to apologize for and defend religion they are never defending ALL religions, only their own.

    Nope, not even close, BUT here is the thing, no one is defending a religion because religion is an innanimate thing, it is an ideology a philosophy and as such, it is what PEOPLE do with it that is the issue and short of a religion stating that atrocites MUST be commited, well then, what people do is what PEOPLE do.

    As much as I dislike organized religion, I will not blame buddhist for what the Sohei did, I will not blame my muslim neighbour for what AL queda did, I will not blame a Hindi for what another Hindi did, I will not blame a religion or philosophy because some people that prescribe to it do horrific things, because if I did, then I would have to BLAME ALL Ideologies in the same way.

    Blame feminisim for an act of a radical feminst, blame atheism for the acts of radical atheists, blame environmentalisim for the acts of radical environmentalists, etc, etc.

  • unshackled
    unshackled

    It's a numbers game that no one wins, but if you want to compare atrocites commited by believers VS those commited by non-believer, go right ahead.

    I stand by the statement...throughout history it has been religion that has coerced more people to do bad things than anything else. Has capitalism ever caused a group to fly airliners into a building for their capitalist beliefs? Has it caused the massive spread of aids because a church says birth control is bad? Has it suppressed women for centuries?

    The point I'm making is that when one points out the atrocities of religion, they take it personally as if their beliefs are being attacked. Then stand behind all religious beliefs to defend their own particular one.

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