Did Jehovah really prove his sovreignty?

by keyser soze 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • glenster
    glenster

    "Did Jehovah really prove his sovreignty?"

    In the theology of the God of the Bible, the basic idea of sovereignty is God's
    prerogative. It's all His, including our lives, so it's fair game for Him to
    have it however He wants--to give people life that's like heaven, not like
    heaven, giving people eternal life, no life, or any amount or kind of life in
    between. The belief has it that's basically how they recognized him, wherever
    you want to go from there.

    "But first he inflicted them with....Couldn't humans have fared better in
    living apart from God....?"

    I think the common basic idea is a story of people living with divine interven-
    tion--they didn't have to have faith God was there and the ruler and provider of
    it all, just whether they wanted to commit to Him or not. They chose to not give
    credit where due and the indulgence threw their perspective out of whack, they
    fell from grace and the benefits of it, and they fared worse.

    Wherever you go from there theologically, there's a more general interpersonal
    secular point about ethics I can see there, too. People can be selfish and
    unethical in interpersonal terms even though they know better--selfishness has
    them do it, anyway. To show how far that can go, these two in the story even do
    it when living with God regarding God. Beyond a story about God, from what I've
    seen some people do, I can believe that some people can be that way.

  • simon17
    simon17

    God does not have "prove" his sovereignty to anyone. He is Sovereign over all because he created all things and because of him we live, breath and exist. Peace, Lilly

    Well then what is all this suffering for? If he didn't have to prove his sovereignty then he could have just say "Adam and Even messed up. They get destroyed along with Satan. We all agree I'm the boss and that what I do is the right thing to do."

    Done.

    You NEED the sovereignty proof concept to explain suffering in any sort of realistic way. But then that is only really to confuse you from the fact that it still makes no sense whatsoever.

  • sabastious
    sabastious

    I did a video on this subject:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htRbaYYRbKg

    -Sab

  • simon17
    simon17

    But first he inflicted them with sickness, death and imperfection. In essence, he stacked the deck against humanity so that they would fail. Couldn't humans have fared better in living apart from God had he left them in the state in which he created them?

    No, its far worse than you just described!

    * Even with the deck stacked against them, humans were pulling together at Babel and accomplishing things so God intervened just to mess them up and make them speak different languages leading to nations and nationalism, one of the most devisive thigns in the history of human kind. Now THAT is stacking the deck!

    * Even with all this, 99.9% of the world is choosing to not live by God's standards and is instead choosing their own freedom to rule. But it doesn't matter, that is still "proof" that God's way is better even though it has NEVER BEEN TRIED or confirmed by any subject!

    * After 1000 years of God's rulership, the number who choose independence from him is still "as the number of the sands of the sea." So really the vote is in, and humans want to rule themselves. But, since thats the "wrong answer", God destroys them.

    Think about the absolute ridiculousness of this. Seriously, its astounding. Who actually is the ones who decide the challenge of who is best to rule? In the end: its God! So why couldn't he have done that right at the beginning and skipped the 6000 years of suffering part?

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    keyser,

    I see what you are saying. The belief that God's Soveriegnty was called into Q by the fall of man is a Jehovah's Witness view. It is not a view of main stream chrisitianity. For the latter Christians, God has always been soveriegn, meaning "superior", "greatest" or "supreme in power". This is because God is above all things, knows all things, past, present and future, and can do all things.

    That being said, it is an untruth (or false view) to say God must prove his soveriegnty to mankind.

    Also, Just because bad things happen to good people, this does not negate God's power because he promises that NOTHING can ever seperate us from him or his love, not even death. Again because though we may die, we shall live. (again). This is one of the very core, basic beliefs of mainstream Christianity.

    Peace, Lilly

  • keyser soze
    keyser soze
    That being said, it is an untruth (or false view) to say God must prove his soveriegnty to mankind.

    That's not really what I was trying to say. Perhaps I phrased the question wrong. A better way to put it is- Did Jehovah really prove that humans are incapable of governing themselves successfully, independent from him? Would humanity have failed had they remained in their initial state of perfection, as god had intended?

    He had to change the nature of man in order to prove to Satan that he was right.

  • lovelylil
    lovelylil

    Good Q.

    For those who believe the bible, the answer would be yes, mankind will always fail if they live a life independent of God. Would it matter if they were perfect? Well, outside of God, man can never BE perfect.

    Adam and Eve's "perfection" or "sinless nature" was DUE to their total dependence on the creator. When they sinned, they lost this state of Grace for themselves and all mankind. Since noone can be perfect outside of God, the answer remains the same.

    What Adam and Eve did was decide to live independent of God. God's Soveriengty was NEVER in question. What was in question was whether or not man can live a good life independent of God. Not God's right to rule like the WT says. Of course God has the right the rule mankind, he created all things! Being "soveriegn" means he is over all and above all, that his ways are much higher than ours. How does this change with the fall of man? It doesn't.

    the problem with the WT is they are trying to make the Q about God's Soveriengty, rather than about living independent of God. That is because they equate "soveriegnty" with rulership in order to preach their own brand of the gospel. Their gospel is about the kingdom of God coming to rule the earth, wheras they will be the subjects of it. For the Christian, the gospel is about Jesus Christ, WHO IS the way back into Grace and fellowship WITH God, both in this life and in the life to come. Peace, Lilly

  • Lore
    Lore

    This reminds me of that time my sister told me that keeping my dogs in a tiny little cage on a leash was inhumane. I told her that they would never be able to survive without my help.

    She bet I was wrong and said they'd do fine.

    So I cut off all their legs and threw them in a ditch. Wouldn't you know it? Those stupid dogs started to actually dig a ramp out of the ditch with their mouths. . . So I poked all their eyes out.

    It's been a few months since then and several of the dogs are still alive. But they look like crap. . . They didn't look that bad when I had them in a cage.

    I sure showed my sister! Maybe next time I get a pet she'll realize that I'm the best thing that ever happened to those animals.
    Sure it might have sucked for those dogs a bit, but I had to prove that they wouldn't be able to survive without me. I'm sure they understand.

  • miseryloveselders
    miseryloveselders

    Lore, good illustration.

  • Morbidzbaby
    Morbidzbaby

    Well, if you buy into the whole Genesis thing, no he didn't. All he proved was that he can't prove a point without fighting dirty.

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