Did Jehovah really prove his sovreignty?

by keyser soze 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  keyser soze

  Lore!
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  lovelylil

  Yeah, don't remember God poking our eyes out or cutting off our legs. But that is an interesting view thats for sure.
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  unshackled

  When I first started questioning the god hypothethis a rough analogy I realized was likening mankind/earth as god's ant farm. But god lights that ant farm on fire, and only keeps the ones that survive as his "chosen ones". Pretty much sums up the bible story.
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  Lore

  Yeah, don't remember God poking our eyes out or cutting off our legs. But that is an interesting view thats for sure.

  Meh, not quite so gory. But I think reducing our lifespan from infinite to 80 years. Introducing sickness and creating viruses. Taking away 1000 years of progress with a flood then scrambling our languages because we were doing too good. . . I'd say that counts as sabatoging the human species.

  Lore, good illustration.

  What makes you think it was an illustration?
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  lifeisgood

  lovelylil,

  "For those who believe the bible, the answer would be yes, mankind will always fail if they live a life independent of God. Would it matter if they were perfect? Well, outside of God, man can never BE perfect."

  This is just your opinion, the Bible does not say this. This is a nice cop out. Adam and Eve were created perfect. If they wanted a life without influence of "God", they can only have it by choosing death. Nice. Only a lunatic would set up such a contract. No parent would do this. "Oh, son, daughter, if you want to live away from me, you have to die". This is total insanity.

  Then you claimed:

  "Adam and Eve's "perfection" or "sinless nature" was DUE to their total dependence on the creator. When they sinned, they lost this state of Grace for themselves and all mankind. Since noone can be perfect outside of God, the answer remains the same."

  Prove it. Where does the Bible say this?

  The garden of Eden story is simple to understand:

  1. God creates His children.
  2. An extremely old, extremely knowledgeable creature, Satan the Devil, enters into a contest with God, which God accepts, claiming that he can trick the human children into rejecting God.
  3. God does not warn his children that the extremely knowledgable adult creature is going to be playing some tricks on the children, he just watches.
  4. Satan tricks the children. Gee, what a surprise.
  5. God punishes ALL HUMANS with loss of life, otherwise they could have had everlasting life, because Satan was able to trick the children while God sat back and watched.

  This is completely insane. Only an evil creature would permit such a thing to happen. I am going to sit around and watch while my infantile children are tricked by an ancient genius? Then I am going to punish them for being tricked?

  Hogwash. No parent would do this.
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  tec

  Lifeisgood, you said this to lovelylil:

  This is just your opinion, the Bible does not say this

  and:

  Prove it. Where does the Bible say this?

  Then you said this:

  2. An extremely old, extremely knowledgeable creature, Satan the Devil, enters into a contest with God, which God accepts, claiming that he can trick the human children into rejecting God.
  3. God does not warn his children that the extremely knowledgable adult creature is going to be playing some tricks on the children, he just watches.

  Could you please prove that from the bible, and not from opinion?

  Tammy
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  lifeisgood

  tec,

  I told you not to talk to me. Please respect my wishes.
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  tec

  That doesn't really address my initial post. God was trying to prove that Satan was wrong, that humans couldn't govern themselves, independent from him. He had to inflict humanity with all sorts of shortcomings in order to accomplish that.

  I don't think it was ever about God's nature, and I don't think he ever had to prove anything to Satan, or to anyone. That would be up to us, wouldn't it? It is about our nature. Can we choose love, honesty, mercy, etc... or will we throw those things to the side to protect ourselves, and the things we want for ourselves?

  Jesus, himself, asked why we couldn't think for ourselves and make a right decision.

  I think this whole sovereignty issue is a twist that isn't even there.

  Tammy
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  Satanus

  I don't see ANY proof of gods soveriegnty, ANYWHERE.

  S
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  Satanus

  Scratch that. Christianity overtaking rome, and it subsequently becoming the most powerful state in the world, christian britain becoming the head of a world empire, and then the mainly christian usa becoming the world's superpower could be construed as proof of the christian god being the soveriegn of earth. If the usa loses that position to china, that will of course lead to the fall of the christian god's soveriegnty to the chinese people.

  S