FAITH CAN JUSTIFY ANYTHING!!!!
Think about it.
Is it possible to define faith in a simple, logical, unambiguous way?
by losthobbit 67 Replies latest watchtower bible
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tec
Only someone with faith could believe that Jesus really did feed thousands with a few items of food and then gathered up more in leftovers than he started with.
Yes. You would have to step outside what we know about laws of nature, and allow the possibility of something outside of what we currently know.
What about faith in a creator? Faith even in the God of Christ as creator, taking out all the miracles and simply going by the teachings and the example set? Is belief in any or all things not yet proven irrational?
Tammy
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wobble
I know what you mean whereami, "faith can justify anything !" like the crusades or suicide bombing.
But faith can never truly justify anything, even an act that 99.9% would agree is good, something that is justified is proved by reason to be worthy and correct.
As we have seen, faith and reason are not bedfellows.
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wobble
Most belief is irrational Tammy, as belief is accepting that something is true , or even probably true, without proof.
Hence I believe in hardly anything.
I accept many things as being true, because they have facts or logic to support them, things I can test and check.
There are many things I concede may be possible, but no proof exists for them at present, such as life elsewhere in the universe, or even other universes. So I do not "believe" in them.
Some things are so improbable, like a strong wind blowing through a junk-yard and the result being a perfectly assembled 1963 Ford, that I do not even put them on my probable list. The Christian god being real comes under that heading.
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tec
I understand what you're saying Wobble.
But I put my faith in God because of Christ. I put my faith in Christ because of the wisdom, the truth, the morals and the love that are in his teachings and example.
Not because of the miracles. I have only the accounts to go by, testifying that those are real. I don't disregard them or even disbelieve them, but they are not the reason I come to put my faith in Christ. The wisdom, the truth and the morals are there in black and white. I see no motivation, and next to no likelihood of someone understanding these truths, and then going ahead and doing the opposite by lying in the telling of them... and also dying for a myth that they themselves created.
Tammy
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jgnat
losthobbit - "anthing that is unable to "dance with logic", has that problem because it is illogical... it doesn't make sense, or it isn't true. Anyone who thinks rationally cannot have faith."
I'd counter that I would never use my faith to solve math problems. I suggest also that logic stumbles where transcendent themes reign; like hope. We have two sides to our brains; both have their utility. Let's not dismiss one in favor of the other.
Regarding the abuse of faith to justify evils like suicide bombing; Karen Armstrong makes a strong argument that extremists have bastardized their faith; applying a "logical" ultimate solution to a perceived "problem". All faiths subscribe to the Golden Rule, though adherents have a spotty record of applying it.
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wobble
I am happy to take on board wisdom, truth and moral guidance whoever writes it , Jesus or A.C Grayling.
I must check out A.C's new book, he has written a"Bible" for Atheists/ Humanists that has been ten years in the writing.
But what is this "putting faith" in such a person ? Jesus died, Ghandi died, A.C Grayling and the other modern philosophers will die, I have faith in that if you like, and I am free to take on board their teaching, whether they are dead or alive, but I put no faith in them.
They personally will not do anything for me,the dead ones cannot, their wisdom may, but they neither need nor ask for my worship or faith.
Living a good moral life in the real world is not contingent upon faith, in fact such a life may be restricted by faith.
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tec
But what is this "putting faith" in such a person ?
I'll try and explain - though I am all for taking wisdom from whomever has it, and learning and applying it, as you are.
I don't put faith in some things he said, and then not others. He said "I come from God". He said "to see me is to see the Father". He said "everything I do is exactly as the Father has taught me".
As a personal example of what this means to me:I was afraid of OT God. He was frightening and vengeful... (though I never thought that Christ brought an easier message. Christ's message went even deeper, because it wasn't just about following rules. It was about believing them, inside you, as well. No hypocrisy.)
But then I realized how much Christ loved His Father! I knew then that I was seeing God wrong. That if Christ loved His Father, then His Father must be someone who IS worthy of love. (that sounds arrogant to me, but the fact is: I didn't see God, until I saw him through Christ's eyes, actions, teachings) The same moment I realized that, is the same moment I was filled with love, not just for Christ, but also for God. And from that moment, I have been able to see the OT differently - differentiate what might be of men, rather than of God.
Sorry for rambling.
Tammy
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jgnat
A little on the etymology of "faith" and "belief" and how it has changed meaning in the modern era.
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losthobbit
Hi Guys
I'd like to say thank you for all the answers. I really appreciate all your thoughts. I know you didn't all write your points for my benefit, but it's nice to be able to see everyone's point of view.
I like to debate, but sometimes debates do go on for a while, with not much positive happening, because everyone's saying what they believe and no-one's changing what they believe. This is a very common mental process which goes on in peoples' heads to protect their knowledge in every way possible, especially when they believe bad things will happen if they change their mind.
I often like to tell people about a free eBook, called "Software for your brain", which teaches you to be open minded. I know you probably think that you're right and everyone else is wrong... so you don't need this book, and so all I can do is urge you, or dare you, or whatever works best, to read a book on open mindedness. The worst that can happen is you realize that you knew all this already:
http://www.schoolofthinking.org/software.pdf
Enjoy :)
... and a quick note to jgnat: You completely lost me on the whole two sides to your brain, where one is rational and the other is irrational. I have no idea what you're talking about.