Capitalism or Communism

by d 92 Replies latest jw friends

  • dgp
    dgp

    I think all of us are old enough to remember the time when Germany was cut into West and East Germany. The country was basically the same. The people were the same, and so was their schooling and the like. But East Germany was fenced, and a wall existed in Berlin to maintain the East Germans separated from the West Germans. Many an East German died trying to cross to the other country, that was, in essence, his or her own homeland. East Germany also had the Stasi, a thought police that was effective beyond any other, if effective, of course, is defined in spying and oppressing its own people.

    That was not all. West Germany was far more prosperous, the second or third economy in the world at the time, and yet it took a hit when it had to absorb the East Germans. But they did. It wouldn't have been possible for the East Germans to absorb the West Germans and give everyone a decent standard of living.

    I wonder if any of you felt what WE felt when Gorbachov started the Perestroika, when the Soviet Union fell, or when Reagan, with all of his flaws, asked to "Tear Down this Wall" in reference to the Berlin Wall. And then the happy Germans tearing the wall down.

    Why is is that so many Cubans have taken their chances to cross to Florida and have found death instead?

    I find it unbelievable that people who come to a forum where victims of the lack of freedom are recovering are even having a discussion about whether communism is a good thing.

    You guys are thinking of "communism" vs. "capitalism" in terms of economic prosperity. Having lived in one of the countries where "capitalism" had been rooted out, I tell you, as Don Quixote told Sancho, that "«Freedom, Sancho, is one of the most precious gifts that heaven has bestowed upon men; no treasures that the earth holds buried or the sea conceals can compare with it; for freedom, as for honour, life may and should be ventured».

  • talesin
    talesin

    Unfortunately, conservative capitalism is almost a thing of the past. The great philanthropists, like ted turner, are almost a thing of ths past, and we are fast losing the will to say " WE ALL DESERVE HEALTH CARE " or whatever else ....

    just my 2

    t

  • talesin
    talesin

    thoughts?

    I don't think its up to the ridh to bail us out, but they sure as hell could help!

    LOL

    tal

  • talesin
    talesin

    oops,,,, rich

    got thAT?

    R I C H

  • talesin
    talesin

    lol

    thread killer

    me

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    dgp, I juist finished reading a book on Africa where Americans supported totalitarian regimes in order to keep out the Communist threat, such as Mobutu in Zaire.. Wrong threat, stupid decision. I cried with joy when the Berlin wall fell. I maintain it was the end to totalitarian rule that set people free.

    I also agree that state-sponsored communist initiatives are a collosal failure. When groups of individuals choose a communal lifestyle, it has at times worked.

    talesin, http://www.businessweek.com/interactive_reports/philanthropy_individual_2008.html

  • dgp
    dgp

    JGNat, you sound like a great person.

    As to the points you raised, yes. America has indeed supported brutal right-wing dictatorships, and they did this around the world, for many years. The idea was that in this manner they would contain Russia. Or so it was said, because, actually, America supported dictators before Russia was a concern. Democracy for those countries was not a priority. I understand it was John Foster Dulles who said that "the United States has no friends, it only has interests".

    Before I move on, and to be fair, I would also say that America is also the only country where a high-rank official would say such a thing while in office. At least they speak clearly, as in Theodore Roosevelt's "speak softly and carry a big stick". The only other brutal statement to the effect was made by Gorbachov, many years ago, in an interview I read. I deeply, deeply regret not having kept it with me. It was mentioned that some African countries were complaining that they were not receving any attention anymore. Gorbachov said something like "Why would they complain? Have they ever received any attention? When the world was divided into two sides, and we found it advantageous to support them and give them weapons, we did that; but they were never taken in consideration". That's how it was indeed.

    More to the point, Third World countries like Zaire had no freedom under right-wing governments either. That is certainly true throughout the Third World. The tragedy is that only too often the legitimate yearning for freedom and independence of a nation received support from the left, in the understanding that in this way they would win a battle in their long Cold War with the West, but the resulting government was certainly not democratic, and was almost invariably much worse than the previous one. But there would always be a friendly ear in the West claiming that freedom had at long last been attained. And it was even worse when Americans would be instrumental in overthrowing the right-wing guy they had previously endorsed, without even stopping to think who would take over. Gorbachov would have said that the people of those countries "are not paid attention". Thousands would die for nothing.

    Think Cuba, Mozambique, Angola and Vietnam.

    In my humble opinion, with all the flaws it certainly has, Western democracy is the system that works best. You only need to have lived in one of those countries to understand it so.

    May I only add that I see the same pattern in Libya now. They have a ruthless dictator in Gaddafi. There is a so-called spontaneous rebellion, led by messrs. Khalifa Belqasim Haftar and Abdul Fatah Younis. What does the Wikipedia say about them?

    (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Khalifa_Belqasim_Haftar)

    Khalifa Belqasim Haftar (sometimes spelled Hifter, Hefter or Huftur) is a senior military officer in Libya. Formerly one of Muammar Gaddafi's army commanders in the Chadian-Libyan conflict, he fell out with the regime when Libya lost the war, and sought exile in the United States. In 2011 he returned to Libya to support the uprising. On March 24, 2011, it was announced that he would be taking command of the rebel army.[1][2][3]

    Some sources have reported ties with the US Central Intelligence Agency. After falling out with the Gaddafi regime, Haftar set up his own militia financed by the CIA, according to the 2001 book Manipulations africaines, published by Le Monde diplomatique. After entering the United States in the 1990s, Haftar took up residence in Vienna, Virginia, five miles outside of Langley, Virginia, where the CIA is headquartered.[4][5] The CIA is actively involved in working with the Libyan rebels in their conflict with Gaddafi.[6]

    Abdul Fatah Younis (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Abdul_Fatah_Younis) "is a senior military officer in Libya.[1] He held the rank of General and the post of Minister of Interior, but resigned on 22 February 2011, amid the 2011 Libyan protests.[2] He was considered a key supporter of Muammar al-Gaddafi[3] or even No. 2 in the Libyan government.[4]

    In resigning, he urged that the Libyan army should "join the people and respond to their legitimate demands".[2] In an interview with John Simpson on 25 February, he said he believed Gaddafi would fight to the death, or commit suicide.[5]

    He was previously minister for public security, and attended a key meeting with the British ambassador to Egypt in 1992 where he apologised for Libya's involvement in the killing of Yvonne Fletcher, and offered to extradite her killers; he also admitted Libyan support of the IRA and offered compensation for their victims.[6] Following confirmation that Younis had indeed defected to the side of the rebels, he was declared commander-in-chief of its armed forces. However, Younis was ultimately sacked over concerns as to his relationship with the government in Tripoli. He was succeeded in his position by Khalifa Belqasim Haftar, to whom he now serves as chief of staff

    Does anyone think these guys joined "the rebels" because they suddenly realized they were oppressing their own people?

  • CoonDawg
    CoonDawg

    Check your history. The greatest period of growth in the country was between 1865-1913. The greatest rise in standards of living in human history. There was hardly any regulation then. You would think the country would have turned into a medieval feudal fiefdom system by that logic, but people were beating the door down to get into the US back then.

    Sure there was economic expansion and the integration of new technologies for the masses...mass production was still in its conceptual stage for much of this time. Perhaps the standard of living increased on the average, but it was on the backs of labor. The aforementioned period is called the Gilded Age for a reason...it is also known as the age of the Robber Barrons. Working conditions were at their nadir during this time. Thus, the rise of the labor unions began to ensure against blatant exploitation of laborers. No regulation isn't the panacea that pro-capitalists would have us believe. As someone previously mentioned, there is a HUGE difference between Free traid and Fair trade. These companies that balk about government regulation didn't create their wealth within a vaccum. They used all of the resources and infrastructure that was paid for by the larger collective of society. I have yet to see a transportation company that uses its own rails, it's own highways, and its own seaport. They may THINK it's theirs, but your tax dollars and mine paid for it.

  • NeckBeard
    NeckBeard

    This isn't actually true at all. Rising productivity in the United States at the end of the 19th Century, coupled with monetary deflation caused by the retirement of Civil War fiat currency, actually caused a dramatic rise in personal wealth for the working class in the United States. What we consider horrible conditions today are horrible, but they were much more common then as a high general standard of living couldn't be supported at the previous level of development.

    The aforementioned period is called the Gilded Age for a reason...it is also known as the age of the Robber Barrons.

    They created a new technology, made a new business style or created a new market. They added something to the world that didn't exist before. Carnegie created new ways of mass producing steel in such a way that railroads and skyscrapers became far more feasible. Rockefeller made transportation cheaper, allowed people to stay up after dark despite having little money and accidentally saved the whales by replacing whale oil with ground oil.
    These men did FAR more to help poor people with their inventions and paychecks than any social program or welfare ever conceived. But because they did it out of their own self interest, some people consider it bad and something to be regulated or sometimes even extinguished.

    http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Robber-Barons-Business-America/dp/0963020315

    The Myth of the Robber Barons describes the role of key entrepreneurs in the economic growth of the United States from 1850 to 1910. The entrepreneurs studied are Cornelius Vanderbilt, John D. Rockefeller, James J. Hill, Andrew Mellon, Charles Schwab, and the Scranton family. Most historians argue that these men, and others like them, were Robber Barons. The story, however, is more complicated. The author, Burton Folsom, divides the entrepreneurs into two groups market entrepreneurs and political entrepreneurs. The market entrepreneurs, such as Hill, Vanderbilt, and Rockefeller, succeeded by producing a quality product at a competitive price. The political entrepreneurs such as Edward Collins in steamships and in railroads the leaders of the Union Pacific Railroad were men who used the power of government to succeed. They tried to gain subsidies, or in some way use government to stop competitors. The market entrepreneurs helped lead to the rise of the U. S. as a major economic power. By 1910, the U. S. dominated the world in oil, steel, and railroads led by Rockefeller, Schwab (and Carnegie), and Hill. The political entrepreneurs, by contrast, were a drain on the taxpayers and a thorn in the side of the market entrepreneurs. Interestingly, the political entrepreneurs often failed without help from government they could not produce competitive products. The author describes this clash of the market entrepreneurs and the political entrepreneurs. In the Mellon chapter, the author describes how Andrew Mellon an entrepreneur in oil and aluminum became Secretary of Treasury under Coolidge. In office, Mellon was the first American to practice supply-side economics. He supported cuts on income tax rates for all groups. The rate cut on the wealthiest Americans, from 73 percent to 25 percent, freed up investment capital and led to American economic growth during the 1920s. Also, the amount of revenue into the federal treasury increased sharply after tax rates were cut. The Myth of the Robber Barons has separate chapters on Vanderbilt, Hill, Schwab, Mellon, and the Scrantons. The author also has a conclusion, in which he looks at the textbook bias on the subject of Robber Barons and the rise of the U. S. in the late 1800s. This chapter explores three leading college texts in U. S. history and shows how they misread American history and disparage market entrepreneurs instead of the political entrepreneurs. This book is in its fifth edition, and is widely adopted in college and high school classrooms across the U. S.

  • NeckBeard

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