Is this not an easy question?

by the pharmer 137 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @the pharmer:

    So you've essentially said to me:

    As a non-JW, your correct view which opposed the JW incorrect view would have had to be thought of and taught as being an incorrect view (on the basis that it opposed the JW view) until the JWs, as a body, were allowed to embrace your correct view. That way, when we are wrong, we are all wrong together -- yet we are in harmony with each other.

    What you write here sounds rather ambiguous and confusing, so I'd rather remove this ambiguity in order to avoid any confusion:

    If the view of a non-JW should be in conflict with the JW view, it will be viewed as incorrect , even if later it should turn out to have been the correct view after all, until JWs, as a body, should conclude the non-JW view to be correct. In this way, we are all either right together or wrong together, because we are speaking in agreement and not one other here espousing this view and one other there espousing a different view.

    If this was music, and it was written in the key of "A", and you insisted on singing/playing every "C" as a C-natural, it would sound like the piece is in a Minor key -- i.e. A-Minor. If everyone sang/played "C" as a natural, it might sound correct -- i.e. in harmony with each other -- but if the composer (Jesus Christ) intended it to be in the key of A-Major (not minor), every "C" should actually be sung/played as a C-sharp instead of C-natural, thus making it a Major key. Huge difference! The ensemble, by playing C-natural, are in harmony with each other, but they are deceiving themselves if they think they are in connection with the composer. On the other hand, if there were musicians that insist on playing a C-sharp as it was intended (even if only a minority of them), sure they might sound wrong compared to the rest of the ensemble, but they would be the only ones following the composer's instructions, and the conductor of the ensemble would be forced into having to make a decision. If the conductor insists on the ensemble playing pieces in the wrong key, perhaps the conductor ought to be fired.

    How so? A Major has three sharps, so if I were to play (or sing) A Major with a C-natural, as you suggest, then how could my doing this error alone be mistaken for an A Minor, which also has the F# and the G#? Both a Natural A Minor and a Harmonic A Minor do have a C-natural in them, but both of these differ from A Major in that the sixth note in both are lowered a half step, whereas the seventh note in the Natural A Minor (G#) is lowered a half step (to G) as well. It might require me to think about what it is I am playing because it isn't natural to include a C-natural when playing something in A Major, but I don't think anyone would think that the piece was being played in A minor at all, but you. I'm sorry, but I'm sure that I've missed your point here.

    I'm sorry to say this, but djeggnog, these statements contradict what you're saying I would have had to do as a JW in the context of this discussion.

    I don't think so, but ok.

    What you've told me, djeggnog, is that as a JW, I would have had to reject an actual truth...and worse, knowingly teach a falsehood...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body', even though 'the body' had detached itself from 'the head'.

    I didn't say this. Jehovah's Witnesses at no time believe that what we are teaching isn't true. Only in hindsight might we come to realize that someone in our ranks or someone that isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses had come to the right conclusion about a matter. Now what if you were told, for example, by someone you trust that such-and-such is a thief, so that you being to report to everyone you know that 'whenever such-and-such comes to your home, you need to watch that guy like a hawk because he's an equal-opportunity thief and doesn't discriminate from whom he steals, as three other people had to learn the hard way'?

    Then you find our a week later, after you have disparaged the guy in the minds of everyone you accordingly warned, that this man's dog had to be taken to the vet, where a diamond ring, a gold ring, and several gold and silver coins had to be removed from the dog's stomach, and that he was presently calling around asking people if they had recently discovered that they were missing some rings or coins? Poor guy, huh?

    For the next five or six months, people keep popping up that you had never gotten around to telling about your warning being a mistake, as well as the people to whom these people you told repeated your "truth" according to your false report, all of them talking about this guy that you had disparaged and mistakenly thought to have been a thief, people that really don't know the truth at all about this man, but only thought they did.

    Well, there are other people besides yourself that have also come to know the truth, including this man, who are all of them helping those who believed your false report to understand the truth and make the necessary adjustments so that they might abandon what they thought to have been the truth and embrace what is the truth: This man is not a thief. His dog was the real "thief" here.

    Jehovah's Witnesses do not knowingly teach falsehoods, so when we realize that something we have been teaching is false, we abandon that teaching immediately and embrace the truth.

    You've told me that, even if I would want to pursue and hold onto the truth, as a JW I would have had to hold a viewpoint that was incorrect -- a non-truth -- in order to sound in harmony...even though it would be in the wrong key.

    When did I say this? Evidently, you understood me to have said this, but I did not say this. Let me repeat: Jehovah's Witnesses do not knowingly teach falsehoods, so when we realize that something we have been teaching is false, we abandon that teaching immediately and embrace the truth.

    Yet at the same time you said that no one who is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint that is incorrect. Conflict!

    Ok.

    You've told me that, as a JW I would have to keep following 'the body' south, even though I see 'the head' is in a different [direction]...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body' (not the head). Conflict!

    When did I say this? Again, it is evident that you understood me to have said this, but I do not say this at all. The guy at the gas station pointed the guy who had been travelling south to the truth, and he made the necessary adjustment to reach his destination. This is what I recall saying.

    In your last statement, you said:

    Anyone that should be unwilling for any reason to abandon a wrong viewpoint along with the body cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    And this is true.

    But what you've also said in all of this is, anyone unwilling for any reason to accept a wrong view point along with 'the body' of JWs, cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    When did I say this? While you clearly understood me to have said this, I did not say this.

    All of this creates a lot of conflict.

    Ok.

    In this discussion, djeggnog, your information clearly supports what jgnat has stated -- uniformity is valued over accuracy.

    Ok.

    @djeggnog

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    djeggnog, I haven't read your entire post (but I will later). Just got to the part where you couldn't follow my Minor vs. Major explanation, so I will simplify it.

    Using "chords" to clarify...an "A" chord consisting of a triad (3 notes) has an A, C, and E in it. The A-major triad (chord) consists of A (natural), C# (sharp), and E (natural); whereas an A minor triad consists of A (natural), C (natural...not sharp), and an E (natural). If you know a piece of music is in the key of "A", but you have C-naturals all over the place, it is going to sound as a Minor tonality. Play C#'s in place of all the C-naturals, and it will sound as a Major tonality.

    Simplified further...find a piano and play A-natural, C-natural, and E-natural all at the same time...hear the minor quality. Then raise the C-natural by a half step to a C-sharp but leave the A and E where they are (as naturals)...hear the major quality.

    A Major has three sharps, so if I were to play (or sing) A Major with a C-natural, as you suggest, then how could my doing this error alone be mistaken for an A Minor, which also has the F# and the G#? Both a Natural A Minor and a Harmonic A Minor do have a C-natural in them, but both of these differ from A Major in that the sixth note in both are lowered a half step, whereas the seventh note in the Natural A Minor (G#) is lowered a half step (to G) as well. It might require me to think about what it is I am playing because it isn't natural to include a C-natural when playing something in A Major, but I don't think anyone would think that the piece was being played in A minor at all, but you.

    I never said this piece of music consisted of any F's or G's of any type...so you can't assume. Want more music theory? There's also a melodic minor you missed, lol, j/k...anyway, you might know that all minor scales have the 3rd lowered 1/2 step when compared to their major form. You mention the F# and the G#, which is true, but I never said it was a given that this piece of music had those notes in it. So, to help keep you on track, assume this piece of music I speak of only consists of the first 5 notes of an A scale -- i.e. A, B, C, D, and E. Based on these first 5 notes of the A scale, how could you know if it is minor or major??? :) It all depends on the type of "C". If it is a C# it sounds as a Major progression, if it is a C-natural it sounds as a Minor progression. Besides, if you think the fact that a key signature has 3 sharps in it (F#, C#, and G#) automatically makes it A-major, you would be mistaken, it could be it's relative minor key of f# minor (same 3 sharps present). We digress :)

    Try not to read into things any further than what my point is, which I thought was clear, but maybe not. As applied to your higher powers example, the point was, in the key of "A", I was playing C# (the way it was written) and it sounded as a Major key. The WT (in your example of higher powers) was playing a C-natural, making it sound as a Minor key....when in fact, the composer who wrote the piece of music wrote it as A-Major. Now the WT/JWs are playing a C#, just as was intended by the composer (apparently).

    Got it??

    Let me know if you need that cleared up further.

    I will pick up from what follows when I have more time.

    I had said:

    I'm sorry to say this, but djeggnog, these statements contradict what you're saying I would have had to do as a JW in the context of this discussion.

    To which you said:

    I don't think so, but ok.

    This is where I will begin later. I am quite certain that my statement above is correct, but I will review and make sure before I say more.

    Thanks Djeggnog, I look forward to reading the rest of your post when I can devote more attention to it.

    Until then.

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    (sorry about the musical tangent, it's a weakness of mine...or is it a strength?) :)

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    Okay, I just read my post, and perhaps it isn't as clear as I had hoped...so one FINAL music explanation that is simple, simple!

    Play "Mary Had a Little Lamb" on the piano in the key of A-Major. Hint: you must start on the 3rd of the scale (C#).

    Notice how it is a MAJOR key. (CORRECT VERSION -- i.e. my interpretation)

    C#-B-A-B-C#-C#-C#-B-B-B-C#-E-E-C#-B-A-B-C#-C#-C#-C#-B-B-C#-B-A

    Now replace all the C#'s with C-naturals.

    Notice how it is now in a minor key. (INCORRECT VERSION -- i.e. WT interpretation prior to 1960's (or whenever you said))

    C-B-A-B-C-C-C-B-B-B-C-E-E-C-B-A-B-C-C-C-C-B-B-C-B-A

    Tah Dah!

    Sorry, no encore.

  • WontLeave
    WontLeave

    Forgive me if I repeat what someone else said. There seem to be a few people here who "imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words" and I got bored with the quarrel after a couple of pages.

    First of all, most JWs are not qualified to address questions where the Society hasn't given them the answer. Every "good" JW is required to parrot Watchtower opinion. In this case, the Society would print a side-step answer that plays on semantics and gives a total non-answer. The problem with being a real, flesh-and-blood JW is that you can't just print your non-answer or mail it (this is why the Society refuses any communication that isn't in writing) and not have to worry about being called out for answering like a politician/salesman.

    My philosophy has always been to allow the Bible to answer any question where God's word takes a stand. And where it remains silent, to not attempt to impose my or anyone else's personal opinions. Fortunately, the question you ask is addressed in the Bible very clearly on several occasions.

    However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU as good news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him be accursed. - Gal 1:8
    Add nothing to his words, that he may not reprove you, and that you may not have to be proved a liar. - Pro 30:6
    But let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, even as it is written: “That you might be proved righteous in your words and might win when you are being judged. - Rom 3:4
    It is better to take refuge in Jehovah than to trust in earthling man. - Psa 118:8

    If you eventually get an answer from your friend and it is not in line with the Scriptures, you may want to share this one with him:

    Be alert, therefore. Perhaps the light that is in you is darkness. - Luke 11:35
  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    Back on track. :)

    I'm sorry to say this, but djeggnog, these statements contradict what you're saying I would have had to do as a JW in the context of this discussion.

    I don’t think so, but ok.

    It’s not okay if you don’t at least understand, so let me go through it and you can show me just exactly where I have it wrong.

    I had said:

    What you've told me, djeggnog, is that, as a JW, I would have had to reject an actual truth...and worse, knowingly teach a falsehood...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body', even though 'the body' had detached itself from 'the head'. I thought the idea was to follow the head -- the truth -- no matter who had it. Conflict!

    You said:

    I didn't say this. Jehovah's Witnesses at no time believe that what we are teaching isn't true.

    Even though you deny having “said” this, you have communicated this, and I will show you how.

    What do you think this means when you say:

    Even if we might think one of our viewpoints on some matter is wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses must all "speak in agreement

    If that’s not enough to prove my point, how about using me as a non-JW in the example with the higher powers issue, but this time make me a JW with my same correct view-point which opposed the majority?

    Are you with me now?

    You responded:

    Only in hindsight might we come to realize that someone in our ranks or someone that isn't one of Jehovah's Witnesses had come to the right conclusion about a matter.

    Of course it will be in hindsight…but what about those who don’t understand or don’t agree with the WT position…you said, even if they are correct, they must speak in harmony with ‘the body’ – i.e. they must speak incorrectly.

    You go on to use a “thief” example, and then you say:

    Jehovah's Witnesses do not knowingly teach falsehoods, so when we realize that something we have been teaching is false, we abandon that teaching immediately and embrace the truth.

    You indicated that even if some JWs think the body’s viewpoint as a whole is incorrect, they still must speak that incorrect view in order to be in harmony with 'the body'. My point is that in the higher powers example which you introduced, you pointed out that the JWs 'body' did in fact have an incorrect view according to their now corrected and current understanding – i.e. your hindsight. You see, they may have been in harmony with each other (and the WT GB), but they were all playing in the wrong key.

    You used your thief example one way, but if it is true, then the contrapositive of it is also true. Therefore, using your “thief” example in the same way as the higher power example, we can put the JWs in as the people accusing this innocent person of thievery. Now, according to what you’ve said (I mean, according to what you’ve communicated) even if there was a JW who knew that the dog ate the items, they could not immediately abandon the body’s incorrect view…but instead, they would have to hold fast to what is false and wait for the entire ‘body’ to receive directions from the conductor to change to the correct view.

    I understand why you say this must happen; it is for the sake of harmonizing or uniformity; so that you don’t have JWs playing in different keys all at the same time.

    But I will say it again, and hopefully you can now see it.

    You have essentially told me that, as a JW in these cases, I would have had to reject an actual truth (which I correctly understood as opposed to others who didn’t…especially ‘the conductor’ who leads and directs the ensemble)…and worse, I would have had to knowingly teach a falsehood…all for the sake of harmonizing with ‘the body’, even though the ‘body’ had detached itself (even if only momentarily) from ‘the head’. That, my friend, conflicts with your statement that I should follow the truth, no matter who had it.

    See it now?

    (I’ll send each of these ideas separately so you can address them one at a time. I think it will be clearer this way, and last chance of me getting off on a tangent.)

    This was #1 of …lol, I don’t know how many you have, I haven’t gotten past this one yet. :)

    The next statement I will clarify is:

    You've told me that, even if I would want to pursue and hold onto the truth, as a JW I would have had to hold a viewpoint that was incorrect -- a non-truth -- in order to sound in harmony...even though it would be in the wrong key.

    …and you said:

    When did I say this? Evidently, you understood me to have said this, but I did not say this.

    Until then.

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    (hopefully these get shorter...sorry)

    The next statement I will clarify is:

    You've told me that, even if I would want to pursue and hold onto the truth, as a JW I would have had to hold a viewpoint that was incorrect -- a non-truth -- in order to sound in harmony...even though it would be in the wrong key.

    …and you said:

    When did I say this? Evidently, you understood me to have said this, but I did not say this.

    You djeggnog, have in fact communicated this very conflict. You at one point had said:

    You see, no one that is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint, an opinion, that turns out to be incorrect…

    Yet I have shown just how, in the higher powers example, I would have had to hold a viewpoint that was incorrect, even against what I believed to be true and what JWs now hold as true.

    Therefore I can correctly summarize:

    You’ve told me that, even if I really did want to pursue and hold onto actual truth, at times, as a JW, I would have had to hold a viewpoint that was incorrect – a non-truth – in order to sound in harmony with the ‘body’.

    Next:

    Yet at the same time you said that no one who is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint that is incorrect. Conflict!

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    This next statement of mine you seem to have understood.

    I said:

    Yet at the same time you said that no one who is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint that is incorrect. Conflict!

    You said:

    Ok

    I guess that means you understand.

    The next one I will clarify is where I stated:

    You've told me that, as a JW I would have to keep following 'the body' south, even though I see 'the head' is in a different [direction]...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body' (not the head). Conflict!

    And you replied:

    When did I say this? Again, it is evident that you understood me to have said this, but I do not say this at all.

    Until then.

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    You've told me that, as a JW I would have to keep following 'the body' south, even though I see 'the head' is in a different [direction]...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body' (not the head). Conflict!

    And you replied:

    When did I say this? Again, it is evident that you understood me to have said this, but I do not say this at all.

    You did communicate this, and I will show you just how.

    You at one point had said:

    The majority of those folks whose viewpoint turned out to be incorrect would need to adjust their viewpoint since we will readily acknowledge as a body that there are going to be times when the minority viewpoint will be the correct one.

    Then you gave a “navigational” example.

    You concluded the example with this statement:

    …you could, of course, decide to hold onto what you believe and keep travelling south, or you can make an adjustment in your viewpoint, go north and then west to reach your destination.

    Now, from the information you have given me, we can also use your example along with what happened in the higher powers example:

    In that case, if I was a JW who had realized we should have turned around and headed a different direction (towards ‘the head’), yet ‘the body’ was still years away from coming to that point of view, as a JW, I would have had to keep following ‘the body’ south, even though I see ‘the head’ is in a different direction…all for the sake of harmonizing with ‘the body’…regardless of ‘the head’ (because we’ve already proven that ‘the head’ in the higher powers example was in a different direction while JWs headed south prior to 1965 or whenever).

    Incidentally, this wrong point of view could be required and remain uncorrected for years (in spite of the fact that some people might recognize the error in it immediately), so to say that an incorrect viewpoint is changed immediately is misleading and cannot be assumed.

    Coming up next,

    The last clarification you needed was this statement of mine:

    But what you've also said in all of this is, anyone unwilling for any reason to accept a wrong view point along with 'the body' of JWs, cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    And you said:

    When did I say this? While you clearly understood me to have said this, I did not say this.

    Until then.

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    Last one (whew).

    djeggnog, I had said:

    But what you've also said in all of this is, anyone unwilling for any reason to accept a wrong view point along with 'the body' of JWs, cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    And you said:

    When did I say this? While you clearly understood me to have said this, I did not say this.

    You have definitely communicated this in several ways. One of them being:

    The point is not to claim to be teaching what Jehovah's Witnesses are teaching while teaching something else altogether than what Jehovah's Witnesses are officially teaching others. This last is the very definition of apostasy.

    Take that, along with what I have already shown using the evidence you provided -- that at times JWs are officially teaching an incorrect view (see higher powers example). At those times, there are some who might actually know what the correct point of view ought to be, but, if those JWs (however few they may be) are unwilling to accept the current (incorrect) point of view along with ‘the body’ (see higher powers example), they then cannot be one of JWs – i.e. they fit the very definition of JW apostasy.

    Another way of putting this, is:

    By following ‘the head’ correctly, instead of ‘the body’ incorrectly, they have apostatized from JW’s organization – i.e. ‘the body’ (the ensemble under the direction of a mistaken conductor) – but they remain in contact with ‘the head’ (the composer – Jesus Christ).

    Do you need any other clarifications?

    If I am wrong, please show me exactly why and how. I am only using the information you’ve provided me.

    (Thank you to those who patiently survived and put up with my wordiness, I am not the most succinct person. I will try not to let this get out of hand again.)

    Sincerely,

    Pharmer

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