Is this not an easy question?

by the pharmer 137 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @the pharmer:

    If you were to read a passage of [scripture] and were to draw a conclusion that is a different from the one reached by Jehovah's Witnesses, this would not necessarily mean that your conclusion was incorrect.

    If you were to read a passage of scripture and conclude about it something that opposes my view as one of Jehovah's Witnesses as to the meaning of this same passage, in my mind you have a mistaken view that needs to be adjusted to the Scriptures.

    [1] If you were to draw a conclusion that differs from the one reached by Jehovah's Witnesses, your conclusion could be correct since Jehovah's Witnesses are not always correct, but absent conclusive evidence proving our conclusion to be incorrect, you conclusion will be rejected as incorrect.

    [2] If you were to read a passage of scripture and conclude from it something that contradicts my view as one of Jehovah's Witnesses as to what that scripture means, I'm going to have to conclude that your conclusion is incorrect absent evidence proving my viewpoint to be incorrect.

    @djeggnog

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Dear djeggnog. Do you dismiss evidence from those you consider apostate?

  • dgp
    dgp

    Though Mr. DJEggnog has a point, "absent evidence" lies along a continuum that starts with "that is no objective evidence" and ends with "I refuse to see objective evidence as such". In simpler terms, "denial". And the problem is that, humans being humans, no one would openly recognize that; everyone would claim the evidence is "not conclusive".

    You see, as JGNat just pointed out, if a person dismisses "evidence" because it comes from someone labeled as "apostate" or "worldly", then there is no evidence that will convince that person, simply because the claim will be that "there is no evidence".

    This is no small thing. There are some people out there who deny the Holocaust. In their opinion, there is no "conclusive evidence". I wonder if there is any practicing Jehovah's witness who will recognize that there is no evidence that the Watchtower is not YHWH's organization.

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    Witness answer

    You should be in full agreement with the society for they are directed by Jehovah's Spirit and thus correct.

    Former Witness answer

    Sure, but perhaps you should be questioning the Witness answer and thinking if you like that kind of control.

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    So djeggnog,

    You essentially are saying:

    If you were to draw a conclusion that differs from the one reached by me as one of Jehovah's Witness, your conclusion could be correct since Jehovah's Witnesses are not always correct , but I'm going to have to conclude that your conclusion is incorrect

    For the scope of this discussion, it doesn’t matter what the actual conclusion is or even what evidence is available to support those conclusions, because the fact is, within your conflicting statements you have stated that I could hold a correct view that opposes a JW’s incorrect view…period. We can even use your example to help illustrate this point.

    If we use your example about higher powers and say that I concluded “A” about that scripture before the 1960’s, whereas JWs concluded “B” about it, according to your statements, you would have had to conclude that my conclusion was incorrect back then, not on the basis of any available evidence, but purely on the basis that it opposed your view. In your mind I would have had a mistaken view that needed to be adjusted back then, right?

    However, I did not adjust my view and I currently still conclude “A” about that same scripture, and now you say JWs also conclude “A” about it, which I assume you believe is the correct view.

    Djeggnog, in reality, if you think JW’s current view is correct, who was it that was mistaken (given the evidence which you provided) and who was it that had their mistaken view adjusted, given the JW’s current view of that scripture?

    Thanks for being willing to clear this up.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @the pharmer:

    If we use your example about higher powers and say that I concluded "A" about that scripture before the 1960’s, whereas JWs concluded "B" about it, according to your statements, you would have had to conclude that my conclusion was incorrect back then, not on the basis of any available evidence, but purely on the basis that it opposed your view. In your mind I would have had a mistaken view that needed to be adjusted back then, right?

    Yes.

    However, I did not adjust my view and I currently still conclude "A" about that same scripture, and now you say JWs also conclude "A" about it, which I assume you believe is the correct view.

    Yes.

    Djeggnog, in reality, if you think JW’s current view is correct, who was it that was mistaken (given the evidence which you provided) and who was it that had their mistaken view adjusted, given the JW’s current view of that scripture?

    The majority of those folks whose viewpoint turned out to be incorrect would need to adjust their viewpoint since we will readily acknowledge as a body that there are going to be times when the minority viewpoint will be the correct one. You see, no one that is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint, an opinion, that turns out to be incorrect, and this is why some of the things that Jehovah's Witnesses believe will be abandoned tomorrow. It is just as were you travelling south on some road thinking that you would reach your destination if you were to stay the course, only to realize that you have been driving for 15 minutes when you were told that your destination was only ten minutes away from where you began, you might (that is to say, some folks might) pull into a gas station and ask whether your heading was correct; if you were told that you need to drive north for about ten minutes, and then to make a left at a particular intersection and travel west for four blocks to reach your destination, you could, of course, decide to hold onto what you believe and keep travelling south, or you can make an adjustment in your viewpoint, go north and then west to reach your destination.

    Jehovah's Witnesses do you try to prop up a wrong viewpoint to make it appear that we did not change our viewpoint. When we are wrong, we abandon our wrong viewpoint as a body and embrace the right viewpoint as a body. Even if we might think one of our viewpoints on some matter is wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses must all "speak in agreement." (1 Corinthians 1:10)

    Ideally one could write a letter to the WTS or write to one of the elders in their local congregation so that consideration might be given to what we might think to be an incorrect viewpoint on a matter, but we would not teach anyone to this effect unless one's letter should result in an adjustment being made in our viewpoint. We are all one body in connection with Christ Jesus and no member of the body is greater than another member of the body, for we are all "harmoniously joined together." (Ephesians 4:16)

    Anyone that should be unwilling for any reason to abandon a wrong viewpoint along with the body cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    @djeggnog

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Blind leading the blind

    It would seem to me if uniformity is valued over accuracy, it would be wise for an interested observer to remain aloof.

  • the pharmer
    the pharmer

    djeggnog,

    In your mind I would have had a mistaken view that needed to be adjusted back then, right?

    Yes.

    ...who was it that was mistaken (given the evidence which you provided) and who was it that had their mistaken view adjusted...

    The majority of those folks whose viewpoint turned out to be incorrect would need to adjust their viewpoint...When we are wrong, we abandon our wrong viewpoint as a body and embrace the right viewpoint as a body...We are all one body in connection with Christ Jesus and no member of the body is greater than another member of the body, for we are all "harmoniously joined together."

    So you've essentially said to me:

    As a non-JW, your correct view which opposed the JW incorrect view would have had to be thought of and taught as being an incorrect view (on the basis that it opposed the JW view) until the JWs, as a body, were allowed to embrace your correct view. That way, when we are wrong, we are all wrong together -- yet we are in harmony with each other.

    If this was music, and it was written in the key of "A", and you insisted on singing/playing every "C" as a C-natural, it would sound like the piece is in a Minor key -- i.e. A-Minor. If everyone sang/played "C" as a natural, it might sound correct -- i.e. in harmony with each other -- but if the composer (Jesus Christ) intended it to be in the key of A-Major (not minor), every "C" should actually be sung/played as a C-sharp instead of C-natural, thus making it a Major key. Huge difference! The ensemble, by playing C-natural, are in harmony with each other, but they are deceiving themselves if they think they are in connection with the composer. On the other hand, if there were musicians that insist on playing a C-sharp as it was intended (even if only a minority of them), sure they might sound wrong compared to the rest of the ensemble, but they would be the only ones following the composer's instructions, and the conductor of the ensemble would be forced into having to make a decision. If the conductor insists on the ensemble playing pieces in the wrong key, perhaps the conductor ought to be fired.

    You see, djeggnog, I had asked you to show me just how and why conflicting statements of yours don't conflict. You weren't actually able to show me how they don't conflict -- in fact, everything you said kept reinforcing just how they doconflict -- but, you were able to show mewhy you are alright with them conflicting. I do appreciate your explanations.

    Unfortunately, you have created more harmonizing problems by having made the following comments as well:

    The truth is going to be the truth no matter who has it, so the question is, how sincere is your search for truth?

    You see, no one that is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint, an opinion, that turns out to be incorrect

    …you could, of course, decide to hold onto what you believe and keep travelling south, or you can make an adjustment in your viewpoint…

    I'm sorry to say this, but djeggnog, these statements contradict what you're saying I would have had to do as a JW in the context of this discussion.

    What you've told me, djeggnog, is that as a JW, I would have had to reject an actual truth...and worse, knowingly teach a falsehood...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body', even though 'the body' had detached itself from 'the head'. I thought the idea was to follow the head -- the truth -- no matter who had it. Conflict!

    You've told me that, even if I would want to pursue and hold onto the truth, as a JW I would have had to hold a viewpoint that was incorrect -- a non-truth -- in order to sound in harmony...even though it would be in the wrong key. Yet at the same time you said that no one who is interested in pursuing the truth about a matter is going to want to hold a viewpoint that is incorrect. Conflict!

    You've told me that, as a JW I would have to keep following 'the body' south, even though I see 'the head' is in a different dirrection...all for the sake of harmonizing with 'the body' (not the head). Conflict!

    In your last statement, you said:

    Anyone that should be unwilling for any reason to abandon a wrong viewpoint along with the body cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    But what you've also said in all of this is, anyone unwilling for any reason to accept a wrong view pointalong with 'the body' of JWs, cannot be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    All of this creates a lot of conflict.

    In this discussion, djeggnog, your information clearly supports what jgnat has stated -- uniformity is valued over accuracy.

  • wannabefree
    wannabefree

    Pharmer ....

    Your reasoning is awesome, thank you.

    In your summary you conclude "djeggnog, your information clearly supports what jgnat has stated -- uniformity is valued over accuracy" ... the problem with this is that the Organization acknowledged this fact a long time ago and embraces it.

  • dgp
    dgp

    In the picture above, the box shows some interpretation of the scriptures that the Watchtower held as true. They were obviously wrong: this scan is from a magazine published on May 22, 1969, and here the Watchtower tells young people that they need not pursue higher education because "they will never fulfill a career that this system offers". Well, that was almost 42 years ago.

    Was the society right?

    Back in 1969, would they have claimed the evidence against the statement that youths "would never fulfill a career" was insufficient?

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