by Terry 22 Replies latest watchtower bible
Terry, What do you mean by "calling out"? Sorry, if I'm getting out-of-touch here...
In the context of the Topic Heading here.....I was curious what you personally thought about the Six Screens controversy going on
and if you thought the process of baiting played any part in it.
Good analogy with the chess
There is no way to win a religious argument. Viewpoints can be exchanged. Faith is not a factual matter. Nor is it governed by reason alone. My father, the abusing Witness, spent hours every night researching WT material to intimidate Roman Catholics at work. Wives used to call my mother, pleading for her to make him stop. Their husbands had trauam symptoms. It was never doctrine with my father. Abuse of power and intimidation were the true reasons. He only calmed down a smidgeon when he was faced with immediate dismissal for doing it. My brother in law who is Arabic Roman Catholic picks on my Anglican beliefs. My nephew attacks me politically and religiously. I know so much more in terms of culture, theology and Bible studies than they do. It is not a debate about politics. What right do I have to impose my views on them? No more right than they have to what they are doing. There is a reason politics and religion are avoided, esp. in the workplace.
My most interesting religious conversations take place with Jewish friends. We both have an interest in understanding the other's faith. I've attended Seders and they've sent me the most overtly religious Christmas cards. My starting point is that I do know something but no one can ever be perfect. I never state something is the truth. I preface it by saying I read this and mention the author. Other times I explain my private views that work for me. My present church is Anglican. The governing rule is to never judge our religion as better. Respecting others is a strong point. My confirmation teacher, an expert on the EAstern church, said God demands all our worldy gifts and more. The and more is important. I teared up as he discussed the Ten Commandments, Honor thy father. He said how some fathers were not worth any respect. Using Richard Nixon as an example, he said respect for the office, not the person was the key. He commended C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters to me for my terror of demons.
The intelligence, sophistication, link with historical continuity, the Catholic traditions done light, the awesome, majestic music, the stained glass windows and priceless objects, the interesting Bible studies. Respect for the laity. Indeed, in every parish I've attended, the laity is very aware that they pay the rector's salary and expect dedication and competence. Sometimes I sit and catch myself. JW abused girl is now completely comfortable. It was worth all the awkwardness and isolation.
It is one thing to say I studied it myself and I found this but many other things elude me than professing the Truth. Why leave the Witnesses to become a faux Witness?
I am a lawyer. The big problem I see with Witness' discussions of the Bible and/or doctrine is that they will not engage unless you play by their rules. They are willing to walk away from anything that hints at antiWitness. Obedience is more important than reason. I've known many nice JWs but they leave their true selves behind in slavish devotion. Their faith is so weak they will not submit for even temporary examination. Former JWs are so trauamtized that we attach great importance in opening their eyes to the truth. It takes two to the play the game, though.
Suggest even a minor deviation from the Witness protocol and they will flee. Notice that deprogrammers block exits and methods of escape. Not that I am agreeing with that approach. The Witnesses always define legitimacy. usually, legitimacy is negotiated by both sides. The Bible is a weak book compared to WTBTS literature. I must confess to watching the sci fi series Merlin where magic abounds. They are under a spell or enchantment.
This is similar to TWelve Step beliefs. One focuses on one self, never promoting recovery. Rather, recovery is encouraged by attraction. When people see how well you are doing, they will want the same for themselves. Only disfellowshipping severs this bond. Since they are no in touch wtih you, they will not see how well you are doing. Taking one's inventory rather than others is a key component. I believe all the programs have no cross talk rule. Everyone's shares are valid for themselves. Comments and advice are forbidden. I found it very rude but now I see its great value.
I repeat that we cannot change them by being them and playing with their rules. Since I still believe in a God, but very different from Jehovah whom I equate with the devil, I pray that he will give them a bottom. A little bit here, a little bit there may lead up over the years to a profound change in thinking.
Jehovah's Witnesses have created a premise which is an equation: JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES=THE TRUTH.
If you are against them you are against THE TRUTH. Simple minded, but, effective.
The Witness doctrines are so full of holes it is very tempting for an opponent to attack too many and, frankly, the wrong ones.
No modern day JW cares what happened in the early part of the last century with Russell or Rutherford at all, PERIOD.
Further, arguments about the end of the GENTILE TIMES is like arguing the formula for methylisothiazolinone. Ridiculously convoluted crap.
Even the false predictions fall on deaf ears because whoever is CURRENTLY A JW was NOT A MEMBER when the failures happened.
Where does this leave critics?
The last stand is the weakest: scripture interpretation.
This is a doomed enterprise. Why? Because we must face the simple fact there is no THERE there to prove.
Start to finish this layered hodgepodge became whatever it was twisted into decade by decade in an ideological tug-of-war.
Once we accept that THE BOOK has been over hyped and cannot be used as the absolute reference plumline for perfect understanding
the battlefield is littered with those who have waged their battle since the dawn of faith.
THE ONLY TACTIC LEFT is to hold the Witnesses to their own internal standards: LOVE AMONG THEMSELVES.
Shunning, blood deaths, child molestation, inconsistency with UN neutrality, cover ups are their GREATEST VULNERABILITY.
Never never never resort to name-calling, insults, bad language, anger, etc. Why?
YOU BECOME WHAT THEY HAVE PAINTED AN APOSTATE TO BE.
They will bait your bad behavior by frustrating and insulting you with false labels. The temptation to respond with overkill DESTROYS credibility.
The Evil Slave is what we appear to become.
Always take the mild-mannered high ground and systematically hold them to their own standard step by step, point by point, discrepency by discrepency,
lie by lie.
Reason did not impel me to leave the Witnesses. Rather, it was a consequence of something I felt in my gut. The stunning lack of love and caring repelled me even as a young child. All the stern rulels accompanied by no love. Pol Pot showed no love, either. Every Witness must feel the dissidence between what is preached and reallity. Denial is a very strong force. (I am watching Paul Simon and George Harrison from SNL on TV so I am distracted. Great distraction).
I've studied much. Sometimes I feel I have an obsession about all Witness topics. My gut feeling remains how I evaluate the truthfulness of a religion for me. I am not so bright or educated that someone cannot con me. My gut has been crucial in mending from the effects of family abuse and the Witnesses. It is my Higher Power. If God is immanent, God is my gut.
TERRY:
Some interesting observations about what would fall under the overall heading of "Manipulation."
We have all seen these techniques at work in the family, at school, and in the workplace. Growing up with two sisters - as well as a mother determined to keep control once I grew too big to beat into submission - I have many a time been victim of these same methods that you are describing.
As to winning a "religious argument", though, I would have to say this;
- When you hear two people arguing about religion, you know BOTH of them are wrong!
Bill.
Perhaps I should have said "How to avoid losing......"
I never argue with witnesses about the scriptures. It would be nothing more than a narcissistic endeavor. By the way, I believe religion is all about narcissism because it all starts with someone wanting to believe that they have some special understanding or devine significance.
"My potato chip looks like Jesus!"
"I know more than you do because my understanding of the scriptures is more accurate than yours." What a waste of time. I reason with them on their level and keep things very simple.
An elder's wife was bragging about her sons being pioneers, and of course, this is presented as upbuilding conversation for the listeners.
So I said, "Wow, just think what their reward in the new system will be - it has to be better than the average 2 hour publisher!" I could get away with this because she knew me and she got the point.
I ask elders this simple question, "Is your relationship with Jehovah better than mine?" "Do you think that Jehovah loves you more than me?"
There can only be one correct response.
