No, it does not say whether they went to heaven or hell. This proof texting out of context would contradict the explicit teaching of the rest of Scripture, including Rom. 1-8! Their eternal destinies were settled based on their later life choices. Their representation as nations (explicit in Gen./Mal.) is used by Paul to make His argument about the sovereign choice of the nation of Israel to bring forth the Messiah, etc. Your interpretation contradicts Rom. 1-5, so interpret this proof text/illustration in light of the extended passage, not vice versa. The context is Israel, not you and me and heaven/hell. Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36 relates to individuals and eternal destinies and has nothing to do with eternal decree, just real time response to the gospel. Your view would impugn the character and ways of God. Let go of your wrong view and you will have your answer (quit proof texting a corporate passage as if it is individual).
What say you Christians ???
by wobble 277 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Deputy Dog
godrulz
Your view would impugn the character and ways of God.
Who are you O man to tell God what rights he has and doesn't have? You are the one judging God, not me. I only read his word, I do not judge it. it judges me.
God has a right to pick Israel over other nations, but He does not have a right to play eenie meenie minnie mo with individual heaven/hell destinies of any given Jew or Gentile
I'm not the one telling God what rights he has or doesn't have.
If you can read simple Engish you can clearly see the context of Romans 9, it is in verses 23 through 25 and is about the church, which is chosen from all nations.
Rom 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" 26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"
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godrulz
The context does talk about a shift from Jew to Gentile in the Church Age. The original Roman question was from Jewish Christians who wondered why Israel was now set aside and how it fit in with their special calling. This is a temporary thing with a promised future restoration. Get the forest of the book before the trees of the verses. One can take a Calvinistic, deterministic view (that fails to distinguish Israel/Church) or one can take a more moderate, biblical view. Don't underestimate the preconceived bias you bring to the text. Regardless, how does this relate to JW stuff? It is unlikely that the average JW knows more than proof texts out of context vs biblical theology that goes verse by verse through a book (I have seen their commentaries on Revelation and they are pathetic, not exegetical).
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myelaine
dear 20571pnt428571...
I understand what you're saying but it doesn't "ring" true.
you are saying that when the (inspired by God) scripture says that when the Son is called Everlasting Father and Mighty God it is time sensitive and location specific.
how does that mesh with the fact that God Almighty said He didn't recognise any God with Him when the Son was with Him before creation and that God Himself said that "you shall have NO other gods before Me (exodus 20:3) and that God created the heavens and the earth?(gen. 1:1) and...psalm 86:10
love michelle
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Deputy Dog
godrulz
Regardless, how does this relate to JW stuff? It is unlikely that the average JW knows more than proof texts out of context vs biblical theology that goes verse by verse through a book (I have seen their commentaries on Revelation and they are pathetic, not exegetical).
Wow! you think you have me all figured out, don't you? Let me put your little self-righteous mind at ease. I've never been a JW.
Don't underestimate the preconceived bias you bring to the text...
It is you who brings your self-righteous bias to the text. You are so righteous that you can judge God and his word. You approach Romans 9 with a judgment of God and the text before you read it.
John 1:12
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Can you see the similarity?
Jesus says belief is the work of God:
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
Are you more righteous than Jesus?
He also says that "ALL that the Father gives Me will come to Me" not just some.
John 6:37
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
Look at how many judged Jesus as a result of his words about sovereign grace, just as you seem to do.
John 6:64
"But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
You say:
Your view would impugn the character and ways of God.
It is you who do that my friend, when you call his election unjust.
Your ways are not his ways, your thoughts are not his thoughts...
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."John 8:47
"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
Why did Jesus say that some are not of God?
John 8:43
"Why do you not understand what I am saying?It is because you cannot hear My word. 44"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Joh 10:25
Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. 26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
These are just a few of many many more, where Jesus make it clear that not everyone is called by God or able to respond.
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godrulz
Dog, are you Calvinistic or not?
leaving: God's will and ways are based on His righteous character, not whims, fickleness, arbitrariness. His ways are good, right, holy, just, fair, etc. Lex Rex vs Rex Lex (the Law is King; the King is not a despot who can make evil laws just because He has power to do so).
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Deputy Dog
godrulz
Dog, are you Calvinistic or not?
I'm biblical.
Their eternal destinies were settled based on their later life choices.
What makes your life choices so righteous? Looks like you'll have something to boast about in heaven.
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godrulz
If their destinies were settled by actual choices, we are in agreement. If they were settled by decree in eternity past before the choices, then we disagree.
Anyone can claim to be biblical. My point is that Calvinism is not biblical despite their claims to be so. Mormons claim to be biblical, but they are clearly unbiblical in many places (same goes for Arian JWs, blood, holidays, GB, shunning, no cross, 1914 return, 144 K, etc.).
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ProdigalSon
Anybody can be Biblical....
Just pick a verse.... or three.... and let 'er rip.....
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godrulz
Put the verses in context vs proof texts out of context (e.g. Prov. 8 SHE vs Messiah HE; personification of wisdom, not a Christological, Arian concept of Christ being created).