LETS TALK JESUS.....

by Quentin 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Quentin

  ... he was absolutely zealous for his God and for the law. He could have been a very devout man to what he thought was right.....( tec )... Perhaps, still it remains a mystery to travel all the way to Damascus rooting out what Saul considered blasphemy. There was no shortage of Christians in and around Jerusalem for him to "persecute". He didn't have to leave Jerusalem, or the area, to do his business. Other than his "conversion" on the way, there's something about Damascus were not being told. I doubt it was a dangerous trip, he would have traveled a Roman garrisoned road on the way, no intrigue there.

  ... don't know why someone who made something up out of thin air (or even just grossly elaborated), would die or suffer or be imprisoned for something/someone they knew was a fraud....( tec )...Lets think about that a moment. Nothing was made up out of thin air, nor was there fraud involved, grossly elaborated, maybe. The theology of Christianity was a slow process, developed over a long period of time. Dying, or being harshly imprisoned for a belief, cause happens all the time. How many jw's have lost their lives, or the lives of loved ones over the blood issue alone? There was nothing new about what was being taught. It was simply "re-packaged". People got excited, even to the point of persecution and death, over the new package.

  Midget, unshackled, Witness My Fury and Terra make some very valid points. Although I don't think Jesus was psychotic. He was, by the Gospel stories, as Terra so aptly points out, a man driven to achieve a goal. He is the back story needed to fill the void of an already developing belief system.

  Shellby, the EARLY Ebionites already had a Jesus Christ and a Christian teaching in place before The Gospels, Jesus of said Gospels and the Apostles. How embarrassing for Paul and the early church that would have been. Could be where Mark got his "Q" document, out of that community.

  PS, give us some examples from your book list. Should be interesting.
• 

  AGuest

  Shellby, the EARLY Ebionites already had a Jesus Christ and a Christian teaching in place before The Gospels, Jesus of said Gospels and the Apostles. How embarrassing for Paul and the early church that would have been. Could be where Mark got his "Q" document, out of that community.

  Hello, dear Q, and again, peace to you! I do understanding how there could be a "Jesus Christ" and "Christian teachings" before the Gospels; however, not sure how that could be "before" the [Jesus] of said gospels OR the Apostles... as there were NO christians before the outpouring of holy spirit UPON the Apostles, who received it first, and then upon others at Pentecost 30 C.E. Couldn't have been, as the very word "christian" MEANS "chosen/anointed persons" (christ (kristos) ians)... BY Christ [of the Gospels].

  I can understand that there may have been teachings regarding mercy and not sacrifice, love not hate, forgiveness not judging, and mercy not condemnation, but anyone who listened to the prophets, learned from the honest priests, and/or was led by holy spirit... which many before Christ WERE and DID... would have known these things. As a result, they would have followed others, first, including John the Baptist; however, if they truly listened to folks like John, they would have eventually followed Christ.

  But as I am typing this, I am also reminded of my Lord's words that, "All who come IN PLACE OF ME... are thieves and plunderes." Also that there would be "false christs", and those who would say "I am Christ (anointed)." So the fact that there may have been precursors doesn't, IMHO, negate HIM, not at all.

  I am sure, actually, that there were others... many... in addition to the Ebionites. Remember, not ALL of Israel fell away. Which means SOME not only would have been looking for Christ, but would have been TRYING to live a similar life. That he chose the 12 he did was what it was; however, to assume that none of these (Ebionites or others) were never among the others (70 or so sent out, crowds, throngs that followed him) is unreasonable.

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  PSacramento

  Here Shelby:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites

  An excerpt:

  The earliest reference to a group that might fit the description of the Ebionites appears in Justin Martyr's Dialogue with Trypho (c. 140). Justin distinguishes between Jewish Christians who observe the Law of Moses but do not require its observance upon others, and those who believe the Mosaic Law to be obligatory on all. [ 20 ] Irenaeus (c. 180) was probably the first to use the term "Ebionites" to describe a heretical judaizing sect, which he regarded as stubbornly clinging to the Law. [ 21 ] Origen (c. 212) remarks that the name derives from the Hebrew word "evyon," meaning "poor." [ 22 ] Epiphanius of Salamis in the 4th century gives the most complete but also questionable account in his heresiology called Panarion, denouncing eighty heretical sects, among them the Ebionites. [ 23 ] [ 24 ] Epiphanius mostly gives general descriptions of their religious beliefs and includes quotations from their gospels, which have not survived. According to the Encyclopædia Britannica, the Ebionite movement may have arisen about the time of the destruction of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (AD 70). [ 25 ]

  Paul himself distinguishes the "poor" from the "saints" in the Jerusalem church. [ 26 ]

  The actual number of groups described as Ebionites is difficult to ascertain, as the contradictory patristic accounts in their attempt to distinguish various sects, sometimes confuse them with each other. [ 12 ] Other groups mentioned are the Carpocratians, the Cerinthians, the Elcesaites, the Nazarenes, the Nazoraeans, and the Sampsaeans, most of whom were Jewish Christian sects who held gnostic or other views rejected by the Ebionites. Epiphanius, however, mentions that a group of Ebionites came to embrace some of these views despite keeping their name. [ 27 ]

  As the Ebionites are first mentioned as such in the 2nd century, their earlier history and their relation to the first Jerusalem church remains obscure and a matter of contention. Many scholars link the origin of the Ebionites with the First Jewish-Roman War of 66–70 CE. Prior to this, they are considered to be part of the Jerusalem church led by the Apostle Peter and later by Jesus' brother, or cousin, James. Eusebius relates a tradition, probably based on Aristo of Pella, that the early Christians left Jerusalem just prior to the war and fled to Pella beyond the Jordan River. [ 10 ] [ 12 ] They were led by Simeon of Jerusalem (d. 107) and during the Second Jewish-Roman War, they were persecuted by the Jewish followers of Bar Kochba for refusing to recognize his messianic claims. [ 27 ]
• 

  AGuest

  Thank you, dear Paul (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!), and yes, I read that (and a few other sources) before responding to dear Q (peace to you, as well!), the first time. Is his (Q's) timing off? I can't see where this particular article would corroborate the assertion of them (Ebionites) being pre- [Jesus] of the Gospel and Apostles.

  Can you/Q/someone clarify, please? Thank you and, again, peace to you!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Terry

  I've looked and looked and never saw any compelling evidence in the OT that there was an actual plainly stated MESSIAH theology taught or transmitted.

  It looks to me that a few obscure passages have been retro-fitted to create that illusion.

  But, I'm willing to be wrong. I just don't see it.

  If it was the CENTRAL TEACHING of Jehovah for mankind I think it would be plainly stated like the commands and laws were.

  Go figure.
• 

  PSacramento

  Terry, I think the book of Isaiah...
• 

  botchtowersociety

  The Jesus story is the sum of all our mythical imaginings and longings. Jesus is where myth intersected with history.

  http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/apologetics/alternative-christs/jesus-true-myth-and-true-history/
• 

  Mad Sweeney

  There is absolutely NO evidence of that or anything else in your post.

  Actually the entire book of Hebrews is evidence of this part: "linking events in his life to prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures."

  And is this not factual? "a couple decades after his disappearance, someone decides to write some of it down. Then someone else does, too. And Saul, now called Paul, has been writing, too."

  Which part of this is not "fact?" "he's gone. Some say he is crucified. Others say he escaped and ran off to start a family. His followers begin an oral tradition about his life and teachings that takes on a life of its own."

  Opinion should never be passed off as "fact".

  Agreed. Good thing I didn't pass off ANY of it as "fact." I said, "Here are my musings, "

  Defensive much?
• 

  Quentin

  Shellby, the EARLY Ebionites already had a Jesus Christ and a Christian teaching in place before The Gospels, Jesus of said Gospels and the Apostles. How embarrassing for Paul and the early church that would have been. Could be where Mark got his "Q" document, out of that community......I cannot find the source for my assertion, have learned from this I need to keep a log book when coming across things of interest. Bad scholarship on my part. Therefore I re-tract any and all assertions concerning the Ebionites made by me. Shellby, fire up the oven and roast the crow, corn on the side if you please....... , apologize for sidetracking the topic.

  It looks to me that a few obscure passages have been retro-fitted to create that illusion.....( Terry ).....Appears to be the case. Also, they had the intermediate books to draw from as well. There were two ( I think, shaky limb again ) that claimed to be THE MESSIAH prior to the Jesus of the Gospels. Both were executed of course. Interestingly they were Galileans. Galilee, separated from Jerusalem by Samaria seemed to be a hotbed of anti-Roman sentiment.

  Sigh, have to put Quinn to bed. I'll be back, but aien;t going to have a love child with me...
• 

  tec

  He didn't have to leave Jerusalem, or the area, to do his business. Other than his "conversion" on the way, there's something about Damascus were not being told.

  Perhaps. Wouldn't surprise me. I'm sure there's plenty about many things that we haven't been told (or allowed to read).

  Nothing was made up out of thin air, nor was there fraud involved, grossly elaborated, maybe.

  I meant the apostles and/or Paul. People can give things a life of their own once an idea is presented to them, yes. But those at the top usually know better.

  Tammy