by JCISGOD98 117 Replies latest watchtower bible
Do tell - what is the plural of worshiped?
John would have had to specifically say "and they worshiped them both." Of course, either he thought worshiping Jesus was blasphemy, and didn't mention it, or was it the idea of worshiping Jesus was so common that it didn't need to be mentioned? I suppose that's the whole point of this thread.
I think that is a valid point, John has no problem is showing when worship is being misplaced, case in point the two times He kneels before the angel sent by Christ.
He also mentions how thsoe that worship the beast and the serpent and the prophet of the beast are judged as blaspheming.
PSacramento: you just made the point that I thought of while combing my hair; that is that John later wrote of when worship was specifically forbidden (to an angel). I think that strengthens the idea that worshipping Jesus in Rev 5:11-14 was A-OK.
Gorwell,
I would agree, BUT I would say that worship was given to Jesus as Son of God and as the Lamb of God, as opposed to the same worship given to God the Father.
I think that is where many get stuck, if you are a Trinitarian, you don't have any issues, but if you aren't, then you need to reconcile the passages that show worship to Christ, or at least imply it, with the passages that state to worship God and God alone.
There is no difference in the worship given to the Father and Lamb in Revelation. It is forbidden to worship angels or men in any sense (Decalogue; Revelation statements of angels to John). The cumulative evidence is that Jesus is God, not angel, not mere man.
As to Jn. 20:28, the Arian perspective makes no sense and nothing in Johannine thought contradicts the trinitarian view (Jn. 1:1 is definitive).
Yes, and those passages that say that God is the only Savior and that there was no other God with Him in creation.
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Hos 13:4 Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.
Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
One cannot use Isaiah and Hosea scriptures out of its context to support the notion that there is no savior other than God? Why?
Because the Scriptures mention some humans called "saviors" other than Jehovah and Christ. The same hebrew word for all three. Check it out.
And as to Christ being "Savior," the Bible makes it clear that it was God who made him so. What it does prove is that the Supreme Savior is Jehovah.
Any other serving in the capacity of "savior" is due to God allowing it for a special purpose.
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Acts 5:31: “God exalted him [Christ]at his right hand as Leader and Savior that he might give repentance to Israel.” (NRSV)
And as for John 1:1 being "definitive" because of the Word being called "God," one needs to look at the context,
where it describes the Word being "with" God, so, the Word "God" is not exactly the God he was with.
It is used as an adjective, i.e. as "divine," "a divine being." John clears up any potential confusion by saying,
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, not "God" (20:31)
To be the Son of God is to be equal with the Father (monogenes). A different Greek word than 'theos' could be used if Jesus was merely divine in a sense, not Deity. Jesus has the names, titles, attributes of Deity. There is only one superlative King of kings, Lord of lords, Alpha and Omega, I AM, God, etc., yet Jesus has these same titles as the Father. He is Judge, Savior, prayed to, worshipped, Creator, Light, etc., things unique to God properly understood. The Jews understood Jewish Jesus and went to stone Him for blasphemy, a mere man claiming to be God/equal with God. Jesus did not correct their understanding, but stood firm in His claims that they understood correctly. JWs also reject these claims, but they do not even understand what He was claiming since they are not Jewish (first century).
Whatever the claims, nobody's seen hide nor hair of him since.......kinda weird
Hundreds of millions personally know the risen Christ. He did not return invisibly in 1914, but will return visibly in the future, perhaps in our generation, or maybe not, but He will return just like His promised First coming happened. The reason He has not come back yet is 2 Peter 3:9 (scoffers will be proven wrong just like in Noah's day).
