PAWN SHOP (grace)

by Terry 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

Terry

LOL, this made me choke. Terry, you have to do analogy on, Works, but that might be too simple.
WORKS is an interesting subject!
(Matthew 22:35-40):

Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law?" Jesus said to him: "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind'. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Presumably, the manifestation of "love" would take the following form (enumerated in the Book of Tobit)
To feed the hungry
To give drink to the thirsty.
To shelter the homeless.
To clothe the naked.
To visit and ransom the captive, (prisoners).
To visit the sick.
To bury the dead.
In Israel, there was only "works" as demonstration of faithfulness and righteousness (after forgiveness). If you didn't offer your sacrifice when and where it was legally required you would not be forgiven and would not officially be considered righteous.
Legal transaction=works.
However, under the Christian non-legal arrangement, FAITH automatically produced WORKS--but, not as the TRANSACTION (give to get) israel covenanted for.
I would use the following analogy...(yes, here it comes!)
If you love a beautiful, sexy wife the works would be sex with her. This in contrast to a mere transaction with a stranger (prostitute) in which you paid and she performed.
Christian "works" is not give-to-get; it is the natural consequence of admiration, respect, commitment and attraction.
So, GRACE cannot be viewed as something humans transact for.
The contradiction comes subtly. BELIEVING IN, PROFESSING and FOLLOWING Jesus is required. It is evidenced by behavior. Behavior=works.
Boing! Game over.
Terry

If there are no "conditions" for appraisal there can be no fault found; consequently, no sin and no death.
condtions for appraisal?
Yes, God looks at people and compares what they do with what His righteous standard for them is. An appraisal takes place.
God appraised what Adam did with what God required of him. The appriasal led to condemnation.
The "condition" is the law or the just standard.
Behavior matches or falls short; hence: the appraisal =Judgement.
PSacramento

Actually Terry, the issue was the INTENT of those works.
Good works with recompense as they underlying motive were "dead works".
They even had to legislate the works because people were so "motivated" to do them.
Good works to earn salvation was the problem.
Of course, Like james addressed, Faith without good works isn't much faith at all , is it?
PSacramento

Yes, God looks at people and compares what they do with what His righteous standard for them is. An appraisal takes place.
God appraised what Adam did with what God required of him. The appriasal led to condemnation.
The "condition" is the law or the just standard.
Behavior matches or falls short; hence: the appraisal =Judgement.
God gave Adam a choice, everything you have as it is, no wants no desires, One with US, or your destiny in your own hands.
Adam and Eve choose pride and doing it themselves and while God never left them, God didn't force his way on them.
Free will, freedom to be with God or to NOT be with God, freedom to be good or to not be good.
Terry

Grace is God's love and open to all, BUT Christ did warn of what happens when we reject God.
Not God rejecting Us, US rejecting God.
Of course to reject we must first KNOW and God's Sons did indeed KNOW and their pride still led them to reject.
Responsibility for one's behavior implies an ability on the part of the sinner which Paul clearly indicated neither he nor anybody else possess.
"Miserable man that I am!"
What we want to do we cannot because of the "sin" within us.
This description of SIN is more than behavioral. It is a disconnect between WILL and behavior.
The corrupting of man cannot be POST sin. It is clearly inherent in man's very human nature as evidenced by the fact Adam (without flaw) was un--WHAT?
Un willing---or--Un able to obey God?
IF, indeed, Adam (or any demon) clearly chose to REJECT God they knew in advance they were committing suicide.
We are dealing with insanity rather than choice and free will by perfect agents.
There is no other logical alternative.
Terry

Actually Terry, the issue was the INTENT of those works.
Good works with recompense as they underlying motive were "dead works".
They even had to legislate the works because people were so "motivated" to do them.
Good works to earn salvation was the problem.
Of course, Like james addressed, Faith without good works isn't much faith at all , is it?
The choice Adam was given in Eden was clearly WORKS oriented.
Obey=Life everlasting
Disobey=Sure death.
Adam, it is reported, did not want to disobey God or reject God. The words tell us what Adam's desire and will was, "...wanted to BE LIKE GOD knowing good and bad."
There is ALWAYS a condition for FORGIVENESS. The bottom line is how we, in turn, treat our fellow man.
In the parable where a man is forgiven his debt and that man refuses to forgive another the CONDITION appears! The first debt holder who forgave the debt RESCINDS the forgiveness based on the CONDITION.
PSacramento

Responsibility for one's behavior implies an ability on the part of the sinner which Paul clearly indicated neither he nor anybody else possess.
"Miserable man that I am!"
Paul's point is that you can't do it, be righteous, without God.
What we want to do we cannot because of the "sin" within us.
Namely pride, the source of all sin.
This description of SIN is more than behavioral. It is a disconnect between WILL and behavior.
The corrupting of man cannot be POST sin. It is clearly inherent in man's very human nature as evidenced by the fact Adam (without flaw) was un--WHAT?
Un willing---or--Un able to obey God?
IF, indeed, Adam (or any demon) clearly chose to REJECT God they knew in advance they were committing suicide.
Did they?
Are they?
We are dealing with insanity rather than choice and free will by perfect agents.
There is no other logical alternative.
Certainly it may seem that anyone that goes out of their way to act in a way that they know will harm them seems insane, yet...we have prime examples of it over and over and over.
Terry

Any behavior which does not MEET THOSE CONDITIONS results in condemnation--by who? God. The "unconditional" lover.
Confusing justice with love?
Grace is given freely, but justice is what we must face for our sins, one has nothing to do with the other.
LOVE is itself the strongest possible emotion based on the strongest possible values. God's values are absolute in perfection.
Perfect is conditional upon standards. Upholding standards is "just".
As a sidebar, when an editor adjusts the words on a printed page to make the rows come out perfectly even it is called "justification."
Even the word "adJUST" contains that notion of upholding a standard.
What I'm say which you are NOT SAYING is that there can be no FORGIVENESS free of standards.
What would such be based upon? A non-standard standard?
In the parable, the Ruler wanted the debtor to pay his debts. What was the plea made by the debtor?
The servant therefore fell down and kneeled before him, saying, ‘Lord, have patience with me, and I will repay you all!’ The lord of that servant, being moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
What standard did the Ruler apply which moved him to compassion and forgiveness of debt?
The debtor was UNABLE but WILLING to repay.
The debtor appeared to be HONORING the debt and made no exuse.
What Standard did the Ruler apply when he REVOKED forgiveness?
Shouldn’t you also have had mercy on your fellow servant, even as I had mercy on you?’ His lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors, until he should pay all that was due to him. So my heavenly Father will also do to you, if you don’t each forgive your brother from your hearts for his misdeeds.
The clear standard of forebearance for the weakness of others had not been demonstrated.
We must keep in mind that GOD needs nothing and cannot be harmed by the non-payment of debts by those willing but unable to pay.
What pisses God off is the making of excuses and the willful mistreatment of others in a similar situation. His standard for mercy.
Terry

Charity is providing for the needs of those weaker than ourselves. But, mere "need" is not a right.
I may need a new wristwatch band but it doesn't give me the right to demand it be given out of charity.
The forgiveness of sins is not a lowering of a standard.
Forgiveness follows an effort to amend the situation by those who are unable to do so, although, willing.
Consciousness of our own needs leads us to correct our dismal situation. That is, unless we demand it of others.
All of this is behavior/appraisal/standard=Justice
The "JUST" in Justice is the awareness of the the actual situation and the ordering of priorities in dealing with changing conditions.
At the end of America's Civil War the surrendering Confederate troops were paid honor and respect by the Union troops as they gave up
their weapons peacefully. This resulted in considerable healing between North and South and is unique among Civil Wars. In other countries where looting, punishment and severe conditions wreak havoc and resentments, blood feuds continue reprisals generation after generation.
PSacramento

What I'm say which you are NOT SAYING is that there can be no FORGIVENESS free of standards.
Sure there can, we do it with our kids all the time ( or shoudl anyways), forgiveness has nothing to do with justice either.
We forgive when a chiild errs, they still pay the price for their erring, but forgivness is given freely and NOT based on them paying the price for their error.
I think you are confusing justice with a "reconing" perhaps?
It is true that God needs nothing from Us, muc liek we need nothing from our Kids, but God desires US to KNOW Him, for God is truly Love and only fully knwoing God can we achieve the pinacle of human love.
God Justice is NOT human justice or any human notion of justice, it is far beyond it.
That said, our basic understanding of Justice and what we "ought to" does indeed come from God, where else woudl this freaking and illogical notion of "just" and "fair" come from?

PAWN SHOP (grace)

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