annnnnnnnd let the thread shitting commence... though this thread had so much promise....
Jesus was just a man?
by Joey Jo-Jo 96 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
NewChapter
Can you be 100% of 2 things? I had a dog once, it was 50% miniature collie and 50% peckanees (sp?). That made her 100% dog which is god reversed. But I digress. I suppose it has to be 100% each, otherwise he would only be half god. But he was both fully god and fully human. And so . . . one must break the mathmatical laws that the god created in order to create HIM. God I get dizzy with these conversations. (or should I say HUMAN, I get dizzy with these conversations.) Whoa, I just made myself dizzier.
NC
-
GOrwell
@pntsn4195815d095102 said : "1) God's Name. Jesus has made Jehovah a known name of the ultimate significance, Jehovah os undoubtedly Jesus Christ's God who he worships."
Really? Have you even READ the New Testament? He sure didn't seem to use it a lot (read : at all). That sure seems odd, doesn't it? If you've actually read the NT, you'll notice just how important Jesus' name is. His name is the one we get saved by, we can call on and it seems to be the only one that matters.
-
Pistoff
What we have as sources of information about Jesus are:
1. The NT--a collection of books written at least 45 years after Jesus died, and written to convince the reader that he is the son of God. Paul's writings do the same, but have NO detail of Jesus life, none of his miracles and none of his teachings or sayings. Think about that. Not one miracle or teaching of Jesus.
Paul's letters, the ones viewed as being from Paul himself and not the 'school' of Paul, date to the 50's.
The NT is a believer's take on Jesus, making the case (biased) to the reader that Jesus was the son of God, or God, depending on your viewpoint. It is not history; if you think so, try to explain the glaring errors and contradictions.
2. Secular history--very sparse. There are 2 references to a Jesus that lived and was killed by Pilate, including Josephus, a source that can be useful when you take his changing viewpoint into account.
What is more, Matthew and Luke show strong evidence of being derived from Mark; John is a quasi-gnostic take on Jesus.
There are glaring differences between the gospels, and contradictions.
Add to this the fact that many other gospels have been found (Peter, Judas, Thomas) that were selected out of the canon.
Things to consider about Jesus:
According to gospel and Paul, God sacrificed or accepted the sacrifice of Jesus, even though God assured Abraham that child sacrifice is abhorrent. The entire concept of being 'saved' as a christian is dependent on a very gory death, approved of and required by God.
Jesus' sacrifice is all about the blood; to be a follower, one must drink Jesus' blood and eat his flesh. This practice, though obviously symbolic, is suggestive of influence from primitive cultures, including early Israelite/Canaanite times: blood must be poured out.
The idea of drinking the blood of a hero has non-jewish sources, as is the concept of end times belief and a grand source of evil, Satan. The concept of a dying human becoming a god is a time worn trope in other cultures, and so is the concept of the god/son killing or taking the place of god/father. Granted, it is more eloquent in the Jesus story, but then most ideas develop and become more sophisticated as time goes on, no?
Read non-religious scholarly work about Jesus and early Israelite belief, and the picture develops that the Israelites/later Jews were influenced greatly by their exile in Babylon, by existing mystery religions and by political forces. It is from that milieu that belief in Jesus and later Christianity developed.
The New Testament has to be seen as war time literature, written not with a view to history but a rewriting of the life of Jesus to fit with the sensibilities and situation of his followers while being persectuted by Jews and Romans.
Books I find helpful:
The Origin of Satan, Elaine Pagels
Adam, Eve and the Serpent, Elaine Pagels
The Lost Gospel, Burton Mack
Who Killed Jesus, John Dominic Crossan
Jesus, a Revolutionary Biography, John Dominic Crossan
Unearthing Jesus, Finkelstein and Borg
And very hard to read, but amazing:
The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell
The life of Jesus as portrayed in the Gospels parallels the storyline of heroes from hundreds of cultures, before and after the time of Jesus.
-
designs
Joseph Campbell's works are a must read for anyone.
-
Pistoff
It is so amazing to me to see elements of many other ideas and cultures in the Jesus story; it is deflating to some, but was very helpful to me in releasing the grip of old beliefs when I could see how the beliefs, not facts, around Jesus came to be.
It is reassuring to me in a way; for thousands of years, this is a pattern of myth in culture.
The difference, per Campbell and others, is that the Abrahamic faiths (to varying degrees) are unique in asserting that the myth is history.
-
moshe
marked for later
-
godrulz
Joseph Campbell? Pulease. Myth man is not the go to guy for biblical truth?!
Black sheep: do a Greek word/context study on death, perishing, destroy, etc. Death is not cessation, annihilation, but separation. WT is wrong in their understanding of death, soul, hell, etc. Jesus was not JW (Lk. 16).
Newc: Jesus is not hybrid 50-50, but fully God (100-100) and fully man, one person with two natures, the God-Man. JWs are rationalists and could not understand how God can be triune and incarnate as man (Jn. 1; Phil. 2). They put reason above revelation, as do you.
-
shepherd
It comes down to believing whatever you want to. If you are off your head you will believe what Godrulz says...
-
designs
Without proof a Belief is Mythology in action.
Could a young jewish man of the 1st century have believed himself to be the Messiah, sure. Could he have convinced others, sure. Does it make any of this person's claims real, No.