A concerned JW wrote "mistakes will happen." (page 17)

InterestedOne

Discussion of mind control can be found on various other threads, for example the one where Concerned JW refused to answer whether or not he had even read either of Hassan's books. He could have said yes or no, but he refused. The thread is here. Therefore, we don't know if he has any basis for saying whether or not the information on mind control applies to JW's. Similarly, he has refused to answer the original question of this thread.

NewChapter

There is ABSOLUTELY no mind control! Admonishments against INDEPENDENT thinking are SCRIPTURAL. The prohibition against reading anything critical of the org is SCRIPTURAL. Constant and repetitive indoctrination is NOT mind control, it's SCRIPTURAL.

DUH---what's wrong with YOUR thinking???

NC

SweetBabyCheezits

How many cult members truly understand that they're under the influence of mind control?

How many clinically insane people truly understand that they're clinically insane?

I might be in an asylum right now and not even know it. Who said that?!

NewChapter

If they KNEW they were the victims of mind control, they would DO something about it. BUT KNOWING you're a vicitim of mind control means YOU are controlling your mind. SO, it is only through the chinks that the reality can set in. It's unlikely that an "apostate" would be able to get through because the armor is strong. The chink has to come from INSIDE the armor. But the FUNNY part is when the mind controlled person comes here and tries to sell it's form of mind control as superior to free thinking. And as far as the questions being asked--they don't even make it through that armor.

CJW, do you think your unwillingness to ANSWER the questions is really an unwillingness to ASK yourself the questions? Why should a question be scary? You have the truth. It can take it. Ask yourself the questions! Your bible trained mind will help you answer them. Why are you so very very scared? What is scary about a question? What's the worse that can happen? You know the TRUTH. Asking yourself these questions will only prove that you know the truth. Come on---a little courage. Just a little teeny bit of courage. Step away from the manufactured phobia.

NC

discreetslave

He was trying to get to me thru PM's

Here is some of our messages

From CJW

I think I'll keep to using God's word the bible on the ministry. Steve Hassan's book lacks something as a replacement for it. Seriously though Did you want to go to the water or were you led? Witnesses are not a cult. In reality they tick very few of the boxes. Strong-held doctrine is not mind-control. I have had some contact with Steve Hassan's book and know it doesn't mention witnesses and is focussed on closed community cults in it's warnings.

Can I be brutally honest Your basically saying you ran rings around the witnesses at 17 already rings warning bells in my mind. Pride cometh before a fall type of thing. What is your main issue with the witnesses? Personally not just the rehashed fodder people learn off this site? I hope you don't mind me asking.

My Reply:

In regards to my abilities and pride until now I never allowed myself to be prideful about the gifts Jehovah gave me. Who was I to boast about something that didn’t even originate with me?

Now as to my issues are you sincere in this question?
Here is a sum up of what began to tear down my belief that JW's have the one true religion or that it is spirit directed.

Jesus said he was the way, the truth & the life. He did not say there was another intermediary to life. Can the claims the WBTS make regarding having to go thru them to worship God be blasphemy?

Matthew 24:45-47 Who really is the faithful & discreet slave?
1918/1919
Pro 4:18 Light gets brighter(more like an off on switch when you compare JW history)

At baptism the 2nd question is "Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with God’s spirit-directed organization?
Why are Bible studies not taught to prove the claim of being God's spirit directed organization? How many know the year?
Why does the Faith in Action DVD not emphasize 1918/1919? Everything one does as a JW stems from belief that it is God's channel or organization."

After thorough research the explanation of the society does not hold up against the Bible.
Everything one believes as a JW falls apart if there is no scriptural basis for these concepts.
1918/1919 is a crucial date in JW history. It is referred to as the time period Christ approved of the Bible students and they thus filled the role of Matt 24:25-27. Many teachings of the Bible students at that time dishonor God & Christ.
How could it be they were chosen to be his people? Does Pro 4:18 really apply? Is Pro 4:18 used out of context as a cover up?

Is it true it the slave has never claimed to be inspired?

Research this for yourself. If you need older articles or books the website www.jw-archive.org/p/archive.html is a link to older out of print Watchtower pub. it is run by witnesses (any negative or apostate comments posted in the Facebook link are quickly removed. I know because I use to post them. I've been blocked from any further postings.)

If you have friends at Bethel they can send you copies of what you need.

CJW

Prophecy is only 100 percent in hindsight all we can do is use it and pray for spirit guidance for help. Why do I think Jehovah's witnesses are Jehovah's people? Because they are Jehovah's people not Allah's, not a trinity God's, not the sun god Ra's or Zeus worshipers. They worship Jehovah and only he could have revealed this to us.

You quote the faithful and discreet slave scripture and the point of that scripture is they are DOING the assigned task when others are just beating their people and enjoying the kings wealth while he is away. We were chosen when Jesus gave the apostles direction so since then using the bible including the difficult prophecy stuff (we know we won't get completely right) And being followers of Jehovah is what marks us as his Chosen people.

The reason we have gone past those dates now is we have been refined something Daniel shows we will need right up until the end. Even the apostles got things wrong and they had more spirit gifts than us and didn't have Satan's missiles directly from earth around us. I think you expect too much from being Jehovah's people.

They have made mistakes but why would that stumble me? We are told that our condition means mistakes will happen but Jehovah will keep guiding through these mistakes.

We are followers of Jehovah whether we are anointed, elders, pioneers or publishers. And it is he who judges our heart conditions. I think the anointed, governing body do a very good job considering how hard things are and how much perfection people expect from them.

My reply

There is no way you can defend your faithful & discreet slave for not obeying (Matthew 24:23-26) 23 “Then if anyone says to YOU, ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU. 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it.

The claims as to when the end is coming is the same as saying here is the Christ, for Christ is General of God's army.

Yes men are imperfect but Holy spirit is not and to claim the organization is backed by the Holy Spirit when their fruits speak otherwise is blasphemy. The Organization operates under the confusing concept of 'Provisional Infallibility'. On the one hand, information contained in Watchtower is from God and accepted without question; on the other hand, the Watchtower admittedly contains significant mistakes.

The Organization uses the irrational concept that Holy Spirit directs them but they are not inspired. This is illogical inspired means to be directed by Holy Spirit. The concepts of infallibility and inspiration are simple, yet discussing them in line with Watchtower teachings becomes complicated because by definition it is impossible to have direction of Holy Spirit but not be inspired. According to The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition:
Infallible; "Incapable of erring" (therefore to be infallible means to be perfect)
Inspire; "to affect, guide, or arouse by divine influence" (or in other words inspired means to be directed by Holy Spirit)
Therefore, if the Organization claims the direction of Holy Spirit it is by definition claiming to be inspired. In this case, it cannot make mistakes, by definition, it should be infallible in the same way the Bible is infallible.

*How do you explain the misinformation in the Jeremiah book on the box on pg 55
*** jr chap. 5 p. 55 ***
Archaeologist Eilat Mazar reports unearthing a small clay seal impression, or bulla. (below left) It was found in 2005 during a supervised excavation of a layer dating back to when Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 B.C.E. The seal bears the ancient Hebrew name “Yehuchal ben Shelemyahu,” which is “Jucal the son of Shelemiah” in English.

This is what Eliat Mazar did say re the destruction of Jerusalem www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/palace-king-david.html
We do not yet have clear evidence of the destruction. We may in future seasons. But I believe that it was part of the great destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C. by the Babylonians. We have lots of other evidence of this destruction nearby.

She made no mention of 607 BCE she did say she believes it was 586. Most Secular historians feel 587/586 BC not 607. Follow the link above and see for yourself

*(1 Corinthians 10:21) 21 YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.
How do you explain Russell justifying the year of 1914 by means of the occult. Watchtower 5/1/1903

WE seriously question all the claims of Astrology;
yet the following--from whatever source the
suggestions come, even though of the Adversary
himself--seem remarkably true to our expectations
based upon the Word of the Lord. For this
reason alone we present them here,--as follows:--....

"Saturn is the representative of the great motive
power that has dominated the mind of man up to
the present time. The great organizations of Capital,
attracting now so much attention, are in reality the last
great struggle of this Saturn-god to save his throne.
But his efforts will be futile, yet far from useless, for
he is blindly doing service for a still greater God in
the same way as the other planets have contributed
blindly to Saturn's glory.
"Jupiter must also transfer his allegiance from the
grasping Saturn to the newly discovered factor that
stands for universal brotherhood; namely, Uranus.
When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign
of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have
made a fair start in the work of setting man free to
work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate
realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and
sages in history.

Yes this was in 1903 but as an organization you still hold to the 1914 date as pivotal. Here are teachings of demons mixing with the word of God how is this acceptable? Does it matter that it was so long ago? Pagan origins of Christmas & Easter were longer ago & you don't dismiss the roots.

*They claim to perform many powerful works in the Lord's name eg the preaching work, yet Christ does not know them for they are workers of lawlessness. You probably will not investigate for yourself the blood guilt they are responsible for regarding Malawi while allowing Mexican br's to bribe their way out of military service. Or their involvement as a UN NGO. Their having a large out of court settlement with a gag order re molestation. Two homosexual governing body members one accused of child molestation.

If these are lies why not sue for libel or defamation? They sued a website for making public the elders book and another site for making public the convention manuscript talk. They only sue when they know they will win.

The warnings of the internet is to keep the truth from all the trusting br's & sis. Not out of concern for your spirituality. Did you know only 37% of children raised witnesses remain. JW have the lowest retention rate of all religions here is the link http://religions.pewforum.org/reports. Did you ever do the math & see how many leave each year? 80-90K these are not all wrongdoing. People are wising up.

If none of this means anything to you then fine stay where you are. We foresee the Proclaimers book going out of print. Why you ask? They are trying to rewrite the history. They've done it before. If this happens or they stop counting partakers reevaluate you religion. I am concerned for you. I am a Christian & the outworking of God's purpose is glorious. He is fulfilling his word in a way you can not discern being trapped as a JW. The end is coming but the outcome is not what you think. God knows hearts and I pray for you. He is forgiving so if out of ignorance you remain the ransom will cover that. Yet remember those who remain in Babylon share in her sins. CJW It's says claims to be christ or messiah nothing more! Reading warnings of Armageddon into this is silly. We are supposed to warn of Armageddon since Jesus died 2000 years ago that is a given with the prophecies.

The Apostles also worked under what you call "Provisional fallibility" because it is clear they made mistakes while having use of the spirit. It is your false expectations of perfection that are stumbling you. The sign of Jehovah's witnesses being God's people is how much we follow God's word. The bible shows that those not following God's word will be blinkered so even the little they have will be taken away from them. You can see this by simply how far off the mark other so-called Christian religions are. They do not even have an awareness of proper teachings and are bending to modern unbiblical culture massively. There are simply no scriptures that say the spirit makes us or our organisation/congregation perfect at this time before Armageddon, it only guides us! Quite the contrary we are said to need refinement right upto the end. Revelations shows that the congregations will have difficulties as a whole. You are reading a new unbiblical set of standards into your expectations of Jehovah's people which is sad. The spirit is perfect but it isn't time to make us perfect yet so it will not have that effect. Fallibility under imperfection is our reality. So nitpicking over our usage of prophecies is like looking for the odd lost stitch in a perfectly usable Blanket. You just quoted learned items from the ex-Jws that to be honest are a mix of wrongly interpret scripture, stumbling at imperfection of men and anti-authority. Jesus is our greater shepherd but he set shepherds among us to look after his sheep until he returns. I follow Jesus especially his instructions in the Bible. Just saying you are a follower of Jesus yet ignoring his instructions is something I suggest you look at. Quoting the learned fodder of ex-Jws as if that is your new bible is not following Jehovah.

Do not make a religion out of being an ex-JW that is just destructive for yourself and those you influence and in my opinion dangerously close to sinning against the spirit. Be careful. I sent him exceprts from Combatting Cult Mind Control and his reply I understand everything I believe as a witness. I only have to look around me to see the effects of immorality gone wild and children abandoned by their father's to see why the bible advocates marriage and fidelity. Jehovah doesn't expect unquestioning obedience he explains in his word the bible why we do what we do. Even the law on blood is explained. And if that isn't enough we can see the results of bible morality ignored in the wars and conflicts in the world around us. Our shepherds have to obey the bible too they cannot order us to break biblical laws on their say so and they know this. I have no problem with the current understandings on bible prophecy because they make sense and we will find out soon enough anyway. I was shocked to see some very explicit sexual threads on this discussions board is this what the ex-Jws want now? You can quote mind-control stuff but it simply doesn't apply. It's like trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. We as witnesses have explicit biblical beliefs for anyone to see and read. There is no mind-control. That is a very weak argument from this site. credit due to JWFacts, JWFiles, Captives of a Concept

NewChapter

LOL. Yet when the catholics screw up, they dance and sing and scream SATAN. It's so ridiculous. But be sure, it makes perfect sense to CJW. So sad. So very sad. It's always tough to watch a victim defend their abuser, but it happens every day.

NC

InterestedOne

NC wrote:

It's always tough to watch a victim defend their abuser, but it happens every day.

To become more productive regarding this phenomenon, I wonder what advice experts give for what to do when you encounter someone in that situation. A separate thread discussing this phenomenon along with practical advice and references might be good.

discreetslave

Interested One I agree

I just thought what if Concerned JW is John Wischuk. Who uses the term fodder in normal conversation?

If it is you John, how are you? We haven't spoken in a while.

The Quiet One

Interestedone- If you have the time, and you think it may be worth it, would you mind pm'ing my list of questions to CJW, with the Jesus/Jehovah thing, and ask him to answer each one in order and number them? I'd do it except it sounds like he's still talking to you and he's probably left the thread.. If you do, thank you :)

The Quiet One

Very sorry. I MEANT to ask DISCREETSLAVE ^^

A concerned JW wrote "mistakes will happen."

Share this