Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man

by plmkrzy 130 Replies latest jw friends

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Friday

    You can't see the difference between a person's life itself and the life force that is responsible for its existence?
    I have my own partially formed theory on spirit/soul/life, but i am trying to understand how you see this, in relation to wt doctrine, as i suspect there is a link missing in it. The wt doctrine of life force, as you know, is that it is an impersonal force, like electricity, which animates our bodies in each and every cell. It must be maintained by breathing and metabolism. If either of these stop, then the life force slowly dissapates, as the bodies cells start to die. When brain death occurs, the person ceases to exist.

    Can you explain the difference between the life force of jesus, the heavenly arch angel, as defined above, and his essence? It's not clear to me to what you are referring to by this. Can you list, in plain descriptions what, in addition to his 'life force', was transferred?

    SS

  • DakotaRed
    DakotaRed

    aChristian, after reading your posts, I fear that you have wisely left the Watchtower behind, but have substituted another fundamentalist group for it.

    Everthing in the Bible is open to interpretation. When translated, many thoughts lost their original meaning. That is how we ended up with so many Bible versions and religions.

    There is nothing that can "gain" us salvation, that is free and by grace. Yes, works are also necessary, but what works? Going door to door? Arguing everyone else into the ground that you are right and they are wrong? Does it not take work to show love sometimes?

    I believe God's Kingdom to be real and certainly hope that I make it there. I would like to see everyone make it there. But, as far as I am concerned, arguing over the identity of the archangel is not going to get anyone there. Belief in the trinity is a different matter, but that is for another discussion. All the arguments do nothing more than befuddle the importance of Jesus' words at John 13:34,35.

    Of what real importance is it as to who Michael is? Neitehr of us actually know, we are going on our own reasoning. That it differs should not amount to anything. But, to argue and start disliking, or even hating each other, removes the love that Jesus spoke of, doesn't it?

    What you are seeing is why I have lost all use of religion. Especially the fundamentalist groups. I grew up in the Assembly of God (Pentecostal, basically, to those who don't realize it) and they are near as bad as the JWs. God gave all of us powers of reason. It is up to us to use them and to apply them. But, knowing the identity of an archangel just has little real affect on my day to day life. So, we are going to have to agree to disagree on his identity.

    But, I prefer to keep loving my fellow man and treat them properly, regardless of beliefs.

    If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Are archangels (and angels in general) without beginning? If not, then Jesus created them and he could not be one of the "things" he created.

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    It's ironic-- no not ironic-- typical, that JWs have changed their minds about this too:

    “His position is contrasted with that of men and angels, as he is Lord of both, having all power in heaven and earth. Hence it is said, "Let all the angels of God worship him; [that must include Michael, the chief angel, hence Michael is not the Son of God] and the reason is, because he has "by inheritance obtained a more excellent Name than they." (The Watchtower; 11/1879; pp. 4)

    They change their mind:

    “There is Scriptural evidence for concluding that Michael was the name of Jesus Christ before he left heaven and after his return. (The Watchtower; 5/15/1969; pp. 307)

    First of all, this does tie into whether or not the trinity is true. As much research I have done on the topic I can honestly say, that it is true- the Bible teaches it. I'm not going to argue that point here though cuz thats not the question. If Jesus is God then there is no question that he couldn't also be the archangel micheal.
    Here are few scriptures:
    “For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”? …..“Let All God’s Angels Worship Him.” (Hebrews 1:5-6 NIV) (i didn't type it all out so you'll have to go read it for further context ;)) It's a retorical/sarcastic question when you read the context-- the answer is- He didn't-- God didn't say to any angel, Michael or otherwise- that he would be his father. Jesus isn't/wasn't an angel.
    “It is not to angels that he has subjected the world to come (Hebrews 2:5-8 NIV)(again, need context but it basicly says that God has subjected the world to Jesus's authority and he didn't subject them to a mere angel)
    "Through him all things were made that have been made; without him nothing was made that has been made." John1:3
    Angels are created but here it says that Jesus created everything that has ever been created and that nothing has been created without him-- so where does this leave room for Jesus -a supposedly created angel in pre-existance- to create himself or be created?
    Jesus is in the OT in his pre-existance-- intrigued ? Want to know where?
    Also, JWs use 1 Thess.4:16:
    "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the ArchAngel and with the trumpet call of God" to say that Jesus has the archangels voice so he must be Michael. This is not a logical train of thought though- just because you have something does not mean you are something-- For instance the verse also says that he has the trumpet call of God but does that mean he is God just because of that? (I would argue in favor of him being God but this verse is not a proof to that).

    Bottom line is there is nothing to say that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are the same person/being so why think they are? Sure you could invent a neat little story in which it could occur but their is nothing biblical about it. I'm not slamming any one person here
    Just answering the question! Have fun! <>< Angie

  • Double Edge
    Double Edge

    Jesus was the firstborn spirit of God the Father. Michael came to earth as Adam. Mystery solved.

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Double Edge

    [Jesus was the firstborn spirit of God the Father. Michael came to earth as Adam. Mystery solved.]

    Your not just being sarcastic? You believe that for real?
    Ok I just have one question then. This would for sure be a mystery.
    Why would a perfectly good angel, not just any angel either, the top dog angel in heaven, why would he?? Was he being demoted? stripped of his rank.Busted down to private 1st class? The Gomer Pyle of angels. I could by thr trinity theory easier then that.
    plm

  • Solace
    Solace

    plmkrzy:
    Thank you for bringing this up!
    Over the years, the W.T.S. has slowly distanced itself from jesus.
    Even in old songbooks they used to sing praise to Jesus.
    There are very few songs in their current songbook mentioning Jesus.
    They have lowered his status to that of an angel. Almost like they are trying to demote him.
    I mentioned how Jesus has more power then Michael. I cant imagine why Michael being Jesus as a "man" on earth, would have more power than Jesus being Michael as an "angel" in heaven.

    Did that make sense?
    Anyway, I was just wondering,

    Question:
    If J.W.s believe that Jesus is just an angel
    and they only worship the God named "Jehovah",
    are they Christian?

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Heaven

    [I cant imagine why Michael being Jesus as a "man" on earth, would have more power than Jesus being Michael as an "angel" in heaven.]
    Did that make sense?

    I guess where there's a will there's a way.

    Putting it like that , no it doesn't make much sense. The only thing, IMO, that would finally once and for all cause the bible"S to make sense to everyone at the same time would be the "timing" That seems to me to be the biggest flaw with everyone when TRYING to interpret the scriptures. Timing is everything and if it's always off because of a miscalculation somewhere, and it is, we're not gonna figure it all out. JMO

  • Siddhashunyata
    Siddhashunyata

    What was transferred?

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    This!

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