Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man

by plmkrzy 130 Replies latest jw friends

Yadirf

SS
Can you explain the difference between the life force of jesus, the heavenly arch angel, as defined above, and his essence? It's not clear to me to what you are referring to by this. Can you list, in plain descriptions what, in addition to his 'life force', was transferred?
I think that you're attempting to make more out of it than what it all really amounts to. It's rather simple, in my estimation. There's nothing really mysterious about it, other than we can't duplicate what God has done, since God is the sole source of life. An individual's "life" (or "essence" if you prefer) is that person's existence. All creatures exist as a result of God having infused life into them, whether it be directly, such as was the case with the angels and the first man and woman, or indirectly through the medium of we who have parents. (Compare Genesis 2:7 with Psalms 146:4) Michael's existence was miraculously changed from that of an angel to that of a human embryo. In reverse order, after the man Jesus had died he returned to heaven as the spirit creature he formerly was. The same thing will take place when those who will reign with Christ in heaven are "changed" from human form to that of spirit creatures so as to have bodies compatible with the requirements of the spirit realm. (1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:17) Their life, or existence, will simply be transferred into another realm -- the spirit realm. After their tenure as kings with Christ is up/expired then they will resume their lives as humans here at the earth. Contrary to what most think the text means there at Thessalonians, because humans were created to live in a material realm (even as the angels were created to live in a spiritual realm, and are still being punished for having changed realms in Noah's day) the 144,000 will NOT "always" be with the Lord, and the fact that Revelation 21:2 explains their return to earth at the end of the 1000 years shows that.
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Satanus

Friday
An individual's "life" (or "essence" if you prefer) is that person's existence
You are saying that the 'life force', that impersonal electric like force, is the same as their 'essence' and existence. Life force = essence = existence. So then, based on that, i conclude what i posted before.
What life was transferred? The 'life force', which all humans have, which the bible says is the same as what animals have? If so, then this 'life force' is totally impersonal. That means jesus was just another guy, no different from you and me. He had no previous existence, as the wt says we don't.

SS
Satanus

All creatures exist as a result of God having infused life into them, whether it be directly, such as was the case with the angels and the first man and woman, or indirectly through the medium of we who have parents.
Further, since humans already recieve life from their parents, then the egg that became jesus already had life. This shows that there was no need for god to add life where there already was life, which he had given to adam and eve originally. All that was nessesary for god to do was to fertilise itthe egg. Scientists have done this very same thing in recent years, ie caused reproduction asexually.
SS
Yadirf

SS
You are saying that the 'life force', that impersonal electric like force, is the same as their 'essence' and existence. Life force = essence = existence. So then, based on that, i conclude what i posted before.
No, I didn’t say that. Go back to page three and note what you quoted me as having said. You will find that it’s at variance with what you are now saying I said. On page three you quoted me correctly as having said: “It was the personal life of Michael himself, his being, his very existence, which God transferred into the womb of Mary. Note: Life = existence = soul"
Notice that I said Life = existence, NOT Life force = existence. That which empowers us to live is not the same as our “life”.
Perhaps you've been watching too many Star Trek movies. [8>]
Yadirf
Daniel 11:35 ... a KEY prophecy that must be fulfilled before the "time of the end" gets underway.
Faithful2Jah

Yadirf:
I understand you, I think. So, Michael never ceased existing. He simply had his existence transferred into the preborn Jesus, at the moment of conception, I presume. But please tell me, when Jesus died was Michael/Jesus totally nonexistent for three days? If so, when he was resurrected was his resurrection then actually a total recreation? If so, how can it be said that the recreated Michael/Jesus was the same Michael/Jesus that had died and not just a copy of the old Michael/Jesus?
In other words, if Michael/Jesus totally ceased to exist at the time of his death, and there was no continuity of existence between the old Michael/Jesus and the newly recreated Michael/Jesus, how can you say that the newly recreated Michael/Jesus was the same Michael/Jesus as the Michael/Jesus whose existence completely ended at the time of his death?
Siddhashunyata

Can existence exist without a body?
Satanus

Friday
Ok, continuing my exploration of your meaning of what was transferred.
Life=essence=existence right? From the following definitions, to help me understand, can you list the ones that apply to what was transferred?
According to dictionary.com
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Life
1.a.The property or quality that distinguishes living organisms from dead organisms and inanimate matter, manifested in functions such as metabolism, growth, reproduction, and response to stimuli or adaptation to the environment originating from within the organism.
b.The characteristic state or condition of a living organism.
2.Living organisms considered as a group: plant life; marine life.
3.A living being, especially a person: an earthquake that claimed hundreds of lives.
4.The physical, mental, and spiritual experiences that constitute existence: the artistic life of a writer.
5.a.The interval of time between birth and death: She led a good, long life.
b.The interval of time between one's birth and the present: has had hay fever all his life.
c.A particular segment of one's life: my adolescent life.
d.The period from an occurrence until death: elected for life; paralyzed for life.
e.Slang. A sentence of imprisonment lasting till death.
6.The time for which something exists or functions: the useful life of a car.
7.A spiritual state regarded as a transcending of corporeal death.
8.An account of a person's life; a biography.
9.Human existence, relationships, or activity in general: real life; everyday life.
10.a.A manner of living: led a hard life.
b.A specific, characteristic manner of existence. Used of inanimate objects: “Great institutions seem to have a life of their own, independent of those who run them” (New Republic).
c.The activities and interests of a particular area or realm: musical life in New York.
11.a.A source of vitality; an animating force: She's the life of the show.
b.Liveliness or vitality; animation: a face that is full of life.
12.a.Something that actually exists regarded as a subject for an artist: painted from life.
b.Actual environment or reality; nature.
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Essence
1.The intrinsic or indispensable properties that serve to characterize or identify something.
2.The most important ingredient; the crucial element.
3.The inherent, unchanging nature of a thing or class of things.
4.a.An extract that has the fundamental properties of a substance in concentrated form.
b.Such an extract in a solution of alcohol.
c.A perfume or scent.
5.One that has or shows an abundance of a quality as if highly concentrated: a neighbor who is the essence of hospitality.
6.Something that exists, especially a spiritual or incorporeal entity
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Existence
1.The fact or state of existing; being.
2.The fact or state of continued being; life: our brief existence on Earth.
3.a.All that exists: sang the beauty of all existence.
b.A thing that exists; an entity.
c.A mode or manner of existing: scratched out a meager existence.
4.Specific presence; occurrence: The Geiger counter indicated the existence of radioactivity.
Yadirf

Faithful2Jah
When Jesus died was Michael/Jesus totally nonexistent for three days?
Yes. He was absolutely, totally nonexistent during that period of time.
Life = existence
Death = nonexistence
If so, when he was resurrected was his resurrection then actually a total recreation? If so, how can it be said that the recreated Michael/Jesus was the same Michael/Jesus that had died and not just a copy of the old Michael/Jesus?
In other words, if Michael/Jesus totally ceased to exist at the time of his death, and there was no continuity of existence between the old Michael/Jesus and the newly recreated Michael/Jesus, how can you say that the newly recreated Michael/Jesus was the same Michael/Jesus as the Michael/Jesus whose existence completely ended at the time of his death?
Who else would it be? It was the same person who died as was brought back to life. Why, may I ask, are you inclined towards thinking that there must be "continuity" in order for the person who is restored to life to be the "same" person who died. Is it really so far fetched to think that even as God can create a person in the first place that he also possesses the ability to recreate the same person a second time?
Yadirf
Faithful2Jah

Yadirf:
You asked: Why, may I ask, are you inclined towards thinking that there must be "continuity" in order for the person who is restored to life to be the "same" person who died.
Because without some continuity nothing is "the same." If you completely incinerate a piece of glazed clay pottery to the point that absolutely not one particle of it remains, and then create with all new clay and glazing a new piece of glazed clay pottery exactly like the old object that no longer existed, is that new piece of pottery the "same" piece of pottery that was completely incinerated? No, it is not. It is just a copy of that piece of pottery. On the other hand, if only a small part of that piece of glazed clay pottery, say for instance its glazing, is lost due to wear but is later restored, then it can truthfully be said that the reglazed piece of pottery is "the same" piece of pottery as the old piece of pottery. Why? Because the most important part of the piece of pottery never ceased to exist and remains under its new glazing.
It is theoretically possible for DNA from a dead person to be used to create a living clone of that dead person. The clone will then be a perfect replica of the dead person. But it will not be the dead person. It will only be a clone, a copy. Why will it not be the dead person? Because no continuity exists between the dead person and the clone.
Yadirf

SS
From the following definitions, to help me understand, can you list the ones that apply to what was transferred?
You really have no idea of what “life” actually is, do you? On page one you asked “What life was transferred?” Did you or I live before we were conceived? Of course not! Then what do you imagine life as being?
Yadirf’s comments from page one:
The life (not life-form) of the person known as "Michael the archangel" was transferred. – Yadirf.
There is no distinction between our "life" and our "soul", they’re one and the same. – Yadirf.
From page two:
It was the personal life of Michael himself, his being, his very existence, which God transferred into the womb of Mary. Note: Life = existence = soul, even as death = nonexistence. I really don't understand why people here find this so difficult to grasp. What's so hard to understand about the idea that God can, and did, take the life of Michael and implant it into the womb of a woman, which would become known as "Jesus"? Surely that's no more unbelievable than the reverse of that happening, is it? Did not Jesus, who had existed in human form for 33 years, return to being a spirit creature upon being resurrected? Was it not the very same person (life) that had come down from heaven that then returned to heaven? – Yadirf.
From page three:
You can't see the difference between a person's life itself and the life force that is responsible for its existence? - Yadirf.
From page four:
An individual's "life" (or "essence" if you prefer) is that person's existence. All creatures exist as a result of God having infused life into them, whether it be directly, such as was the case with the angels and the first man and woman, or indirectly through the medium of we who have parents. (Compare Genesis 2:7 with Psalms 146:4) Michael's existence was miraculously changed from that of an angel to that of a human embryo. In reverse order, after the man Jesus had died he returned to heaven as the spirit creature he formerly was. The same thing will take place when those who will reign with Christ in heaven are "changed" from human form to that of spirit creatures so as to have bodies compatible with the requirements of the spirit realm. (1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:17) Their life, or existence, will simply be transferred into another realm -- the spirit realm. – Yadirf.
I’ll let you fish the “definitions” you ask for out of the comments I’ve already made and quoted here. If you will look ever so closely you will find what I’ve already said amidst your list of definitions.
Yadirf

Micheal the ArcAngel/Jesus the man

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