Ya'll dont believe in God?

by flower 125 Replies latest jw friends

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    [Actually, according to the bible "fornicators will not inherit God's kingdom", so yes, God will "turn is back on you" (unless of course, you repent, and back it up by works and not faith alone ).]

    This is another example of why I choose not to reciet or quote scripture. I read the Bible always have and I get what I can out of it and read it again. If you get stuck on applying a particu;ar meaning with particular scriptures then you are condeming yourself to having no insight.

    How does anyone know when Gods Kingdom will be completed. I doubt seriously it will happen in any of our lifetimes or our childrens or there childrens.
    Ok so no fornicators will inherit Gods Kingdom. What EXACTLY does that mean? If you read the entire book or at least a few chapters before and after that verse with an open mind you could verywell find a new meaning with in it.
    I think it simply means it will be part of the clensing process that the earth will go through and according to scripture that will take a thousand years. You can adjust the time frame anyway you like but how ever you adjust it, it isn't happening now.

    MO about the whole idea of what Christianity is or True Christianity is. I do not believe that there is a literial religion that can be called the "TRUE" Christian religion anywhere. I don't think that is something that is going to exist in our life time either. I think that will happen "In a perfect world" some where in the far future.
    Right now "True Christianity is found in the indivual person by their works regardless of what they formally call themselves. IMO

  • Sunbeam
    Sunbeam

    Mommy

    You raised some really tough questions about faith and whether salvation is dependent upon being good. In particular, you said:

    [quote] A pastor in your church is found to have commited adultry. How will the church handle that? If he decides to leave the church with this woman and never return, is his spot in heaven reserved? What if he goes to another church and preaches there? [\quote]

    I'll try and answer your question with reference to your example. First of all, I'd like to briefly run through what I think is involved in becoming a Christian. I know that a lot of this will be familiar to you, but please humour me as it is central to the point I'd like to make.

    So, the question was - do you have to continue being good after becoming a Christian in order to be saved, or is salvation by faith alone?

    The whole process of conversion begins at the point when you want to be in a relationship with God but realise that you fall so far short of his standards that you are totally unworthy to approach him. This is the work of the Holy Spirit, that was 'sent to convict the world with regard to sin.'

    You realise that no matter how many good works you do, your sinful nature will always be an obstacle. You will never be the perfect human that God intends you to be.

    The JW's, as you know, tell people that if they just do their best to follow their checklist of 'good works', they have a chance of being saved. Hence the widespread depression amongst JW's. You can NEVER do enough, there is always more that you could have done. And how do you know how much is enough anyway?

    So God says - don't worry, I've already paid the price. Your salvation has been bought for you. Justice has been done. If you believe that Christ died for your sins, I will regard you as perfect. You can come back into a relationship with me and freely approach me whenever you want to, as a child can approach their father.

    Not only that, but he gives us the Holy Spirit, which enables us to discern what his will is. Because we love him and have this newfound power to do it - he is in us and we are in him - our lives will alter, we will overflow with thankfulness and want to tell others about what he has done for us (sorry, folks ).

    As you know, JW's get information about God's will from their governing body. Christians, however, 'don't need to be taught by men', they have a direct line to God. They have a new nature, in the spirit, which produces 'the fruits of the spirit' - good works.

    So conversion involves repenting of our past lives, which were focused upon ourselves and, instead, putting God at the centre of our lives. We put him in his rightful place as king. We are no longer king of our own lives.

    We are exhorted to continue walking in step with the Spirit, in tune with God, rather than in step with our own spirit, the flesh, which is sinful. We will still fail, but God has assured us that all of our past, present and future sins are paid for.

    God will protect us, he will not tempt us beyond what we can bear. BUT - we also have free will. We still have the power to change our minds and oust God from his central position in our lives. We can ignore the Holy Spirit and put ourselves back as king of our lives.

    If we do this, we will do the things that we want to do - which may still be good works. But we can also use our autonomy to do bad. We can pursue any desire that arises.

    So, I would say that the pastor who commits adultery is showing that he no longer has God at the centre of his life. He has changed his mind. He is no longer seeking salvation through faith in Christ, he is ignoring the Holy Spirit. He has put himself back as king of his life.

    I believe that this is the point that James made - faith without works is dead. A living faith will produce good works, a dead faith will not. My point isn't that people without faith will do bad works, but that a Christian's works are a sign of what's going on inside them. They are a manifestation of the health of their relationship with God.

    So, I would go as far as to say that it isn't the sin that condemns us. God has assured us that all sins are paid for and will be forgiven. But consistent and repentent sin are a sign that we've stopped walking in step with the Spirit, stopped putting our faith in Christ and no longer want to be in a relationship with God. Paul said that this was like nailing Christ to the cross all over again.

    In summary, my point is that we all have the power to do good or bad, regardless of our religious views. But, from a Christian perspective, works are an outward sign of what's going on inside us. They can't save us, but act as a litmus test of our faith. Hence, 'fornicators will not inherit the kingdom of God' - not because of their sin, but because it shows that they don't have a living faith.

    And if you've kept going this far without falling asleep, congratulations .

    Love
    Sunbeam
    xxxx

  • flower
    flower

    Plmkrzy,

    I hear what you are saying. I guess I dont agree that because I call myself a 'christian' that I have to believe and follow everything in the bible or that other christians do. When I call myself a christian, I mean that I whole heartedly believe in God/Jesus/Holy spirit. I dont know if they are one or three persons or spirits. I dont know a LOT of things. I dont even try to know most things right now. All I know (or feel rather)is that Jesus is real and good and cares. All I know is that since I opened my heart and poured all my problems out and gave them to Him I have had more happy days than ever before, things just keep going my way, my stress/anxiety level is at an all time low, I can cope with living with dubs that treat me like crap, I can just cope with life. I feel that is because I asked and I recieved. I admit I could be wrong, could just be pure luck..or the fact that I know the truth about the truth now. I dont know.

    I dont belong to any religion and probably never will again. I call myself a christian only because I believe in christ Jesus. Perhaps I am not a christian at all. I am none of the things that have been described as christian so far. I dont feel the need to convert anyone. I dont care about being with Jesus in some afterlife. Or making it into some Kingdom of God. I'm sure this sounds ridiculous and I'm sure my views on all this will eventually change but at the moment this is it for me. I'm not even able to pick up the bible and read it right now.

  • flower
    flower

    Crownboy,

    If what you say is true then like I said to plmkrzy I do not consider myself a christian at all at the moment. I do believe in God and Christ and Holy spirit. But I think you and Mommy have a very narrorw view of what a christian has to believe. I dont believe that 'fornicators will not inherit the kingdom', some wont, some will. or that I have to perform certain works to get into Gods Kingdom. I dont even know what the Kingdom is or that its not already here. I dont have any desire to "see" God after I die. I dont subsribe to your circular reasonings at all. I do things for other people to make them feel better and I feel better in turn. I dont like to see people in pain because I know what it feels like and wouldnt wish it on anyone but my worst enemy. I can quite honestly say that since leaving dubville, I have not done a single thing for anyone with the slightest thought as to what God thinks or wants. So either I am not a christian or you guys need to broaden your description of a christian.

    flower

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Hi flower. I personally think you have a pretty sound idea of what being a Christian 'realy' is. It would be more than impossible for us to understand every little detail in every bible written and re-written and de-coded and translated. Not gonna happen.
    The one thing that is very clear in any bible you choose regarding Christianity is you must open up your heart to Jesus and thats what you've done then your already ahead of most people that 'call' them selves Chritstian by religion. IMO Christianity is not a religion.
    Keep feeling good about yourself. plm.

  • Sunchild
    Sunchild

    DanielHaase,

    SUNCHILD is BEAUTIFUL! And that's all I have to say.


    Thank you. *g* I just couldn't let your compliment go unrewarded.

    *Rochelle.

    ---------
    "I can teach you how to bottle fame, brew glory, even stopper death -- if you aren't as big a bunch of dunderheads as I usually have to teach."
    -- Professor Severus Snape, Harry Potter and the Sorceror's Stone.

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