Ya'll dont believe in God? (page 9)

Sunbeam

Hi Crownboy

You made some interesting points.

What exactly does that mean? It certainly couldn't mean exactly what you said, because that would mean we could do anything and still be saved because we simply "believe by faith" in Jesus. No Christain theolgian would teach that (at least not ant I know ) because it's not true.

Surprisingly, quite a few theologians have taught just that. Martin Luther shocked his contemporaries by his hyperbole, saying, "It is sufficient that we recognise through the wealth of God's glory, the lamb who bears the sins of the world; from this, sin does not sever us, even if thousands, thousands of times in one day we should fornicate or murder."

Ok, that's a bit extreme, but God did give us the example of the adulterous, murderous David to prove that salvation depends upon his grace alone, not anything that we do.

And Augustine said, "If you but love God you may do as you incline." Why's that? Because if you truly believe that Jesus died for your sins, you receive new life and are no longer a 'slave to sin'.

Paul discusses the dilemma of 'why be good if I'll be forgiven' in Romans 6-7. He likens the spiritual life to marriage. It's impossible to love someone wholeheartedly whilst thinking about how you can get away with sleeping with someone else.

The prime new testament motivation for 'being good' is gratitude. Once you comprehend what Jesus has done for you and develop love for God, you want to please him rather than think about what you could get away with. That's why Jesus and Paul summed up the entire law in one command - Love God.

[quote}The "Orthodox Christain" teaching takes one scripture, which obviously couldn't mean what it says literally and present it to the belivers as if it were a fact.[/quote]

Is this the scripture you are talking about? If so, why would you think that it wasn't meant to be taken literally?

'For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - so that no-one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.'

The good works flow from the new life we receive, not in the hope that they will stop God from killing us if we step out of line. A Christian is 'a new creation in Christ - the old has gone, the new has come.' (2 Co, 5)

I think the whole thing has been summed up pretty neatly by Philip Yancey in his book, 'What's so amazing about grace?'. He answers his own question - there is nothing we can do to make God love us more, there is nothing we can do to make God love us less.

Love
Sunbeam
xxxx

Solace

I do believe there is a God.
I just wish he would put an end to all of this confusion.
Who knows,,,,,,,,
Maybe he doesnt care about all the confusion as much as how we handle it and treat others in the process.

Sunbeam

Hi Mommy,

Thanks for your reply. I'm glad that you've got an overflow of love in your heart. It's very obvious from the caring posts that you make. I don't believe that Christians have got the monopoly on love and kindness or that they are in any way morally superior to non-Christians.

But I'm sad that you never felt that salvation was unconditional when you were a believer. IMHO, that's exactly what the bible teaches.

Love
Sunbeam
xxxx

flower

mommy, you said.."If your outlook is true then christians would not even have to try to live any type of lifestyle. They could murder, steal, lie etc. Why do they not? Because as I said, in the back of your mind you know that you are accountable for your actions, and your afterlife depends on it."

see i dont get why you and others think that we are only doing good because in the back of our minds we have to answer to god. you say that you do good because you feel the desire and want to, why would the same not be true of us? why would we be murderous theives if we believe we are already saved? i know a lot of people who believe whole heartedly that they are saved by grace through faith in God..not works and they are still genuinely good people.

if i understand your above quote correctly i totally disagree.

flower

gravedancer

This argument is bass-ackwards. The onus is not on people to disprove that god exists, rather it is on God and his believers to prove he exists. this is especially true since religion/belief in the god of the Bible carries with it a moral imperative - making the believers invest time, money and sacrifice.

The title - look at it: it contains the phrase "believe in...". Why should I invest my life in a belief? Surely something as important as my life investment requires a fact instead of a belief. If that fact cannot be clearly and easily established then all you are asking for is lots of heartache, deceipt and disappointment.

How emotionally wrenching is it to try and derive comfort from the fact that you "believe" some God is looking out for you? Surely, at some point you want to study probability and ask yourself - does God exist? If I cannot prove it as a FACT and I need to (and have tried many times) to draw comfort in this God - what is the probability of further disappointment? At some point is don;t you ask yourself "is God psychosomatic?"

Adonai438

OK Flower-- I have a feeling you won't even find my reply in the midst of all these answers but shucks, I ought to try !
Yes, I do still believe God exists. I DON'T believe in blind faith, though. I had never really thought about the does he or doesn't he factor untill after getting out of the WT but upon study have found there is an overwhelming amount of legitimate evidence that HE exists AND that the Bible is his inspired word. Science and logic and archeology all testify to this. Since you probably got tons of comments and maybe even ifo. I'll just say please e-mail me if you feel like discussing the evidence-- or even if you just want me to email you some stuff and leave you alone to think . That goes for any of y'all, too! God is awesome and I pray for all y'all every day, in case you care Love <>< Angie

Kaethra

Abaddon,

OK...I'm no bible-thumper. I'm not even really certain of "WHO" God is....but I believe in spirit. I believe in something/someone greater than this planet and its inhabitants. And I find your comments somewhat offensive. For example:

Flower says: "I've heard them making mock of God and making jokes about believing in Him. I find that hurtful to me because I believe."

You reply: "Mmmmm, but, what about a religionist who believes god took a little boy from his family for some divine reason? Or who believes a woman doesn't have the right to decide what to do with her body? Or a religionist who believes they can kill because of what they believe. I find them offensive. So, I can make jokes about maybe next time the Messiah comes he'll get a cable show, and no one will have to be nailed to a tree, or that Jesus from the cross yelled "Son of god was a METAPHOR you morons!", and they can offend me. It's fair, isn't it?"

No, it's not fair. Because not everyone who believes in spirit, or a creator, or even in Jesus believes that "god took a little boy from his family for some divine reason" or that "a woman doesn't have the right to decide what to do with her body" or that "a religionist who believes they can kill" are correct. You seem to want to lump all non-atheists, (what a double negative category!), into one neat little package here.

Furthermore, what I find truly offensive is your defense of atheism as being morally superior to theism. As examples:

You state: "Someone stops in the street and flips a beggar $5, asks how they're doing. Why? To impress god or be a good Christian/Muslim/Jew/Whatever. Oh. Okay.

Another person does it because they WANT to, because it makes them feel good about themselves, because if they walk on by they feel like shit. How WONDERFUL."

OK...just fucking gag me with your moral superiority here! Did it ever occur to you that many religionists, (including Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc.), also believe that doing good is its own reward? Do you honestly believe that everytime someone of faith does something good for someone else that she is doing it in order to receive some blessing from some supernatural entity? I have done good things for my fellow human beings for no other reason than that I wanted to....and I am not an atheist. Perhaps I am an exception to the rule?

25ashitaka25

"OK...just fucking gag me with your moral superiority here! Did it ever occur to you that many religionists, (including Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc.), also believe that doing good is its own reward? Do you honestly believe that everytime someone of faith does something good for someone else that she is doing it in order to receive some blessing from some supernatural entity? I have done good things for my fellow human beings for no other reason than that I wanted to....and I am not an atheist. Perhaps I am an exception to the rule"

...........

Hey, dude, I think Abad was referring to the people who SOLELY give because they are religiously guilted into showing grace to people, instead of those who are sincere. He was just showing that any person could be generous, although they were atheist, christian, hindu, etc.

ashi

expatbrit

A small question here on this phrase "doing good is it's own reward."

Exactly what form does that reward take?

Expatbrit

flower

Adonai,

thanks for the reply and offer. :)

Kaethra,

i've been trying to say that very thing. i dont understand why a christian is only doing good because of god. i do good because i want to. just like they claim to be doing. and you are so correct, there seems to be some stereotyping of christians going on. i am not any of the things that certain people here have described as a christian.

thanks,
flower

Ya'll dont believe in God?

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