Proof of God or Christ without a holy book

by Awen 131 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AGuest

  Why use cryptic books subject to a variey of interpretation?

  Only one book of scripture* is cryptic, dear MDK (peace to you!): the revelation given to John. Which was cryptic for a reason: it's a REVELATION. Meaning, it must be REVEALED. By the One who so encrypted it... and no other. None of the others, however, were cryptic, but actually very open and revealing. Now, than man tampered with, altered, edited, mistranslated, mistransliterated, and misinterprets it... well, that's on man who does so. Not on the One who inspired it.

  Why use charismatic individuals with stories of their supernatural calling?

  Two things here, dear one:

  1. The only person you could be referring to is Christ. None before him had anything "supernatural" set before them, in the manner you are insinuating. He, though, didn't have such a CALLING - he already WAS such a being. He simply took OUR form... so that he could pay the price for OUR sins.

  2. That word, "supernatural"... is a man-made word. Meaning, in essencem a "nature" that is "superior". And so, this would be true of my Lord: HIS nature far, far exceeds that of ours. Love... is his overarching nature. Hate... is ours. And so ours is largely debased... and thus [quite] inferior. However, "supernatural" has nothing to do with "spiritual", vs. "physical", as you suggest and may believe. Or "celestial" vs. "terrestrial." While man's current "nature" is physical/terrestrial... it won't always be. It is NOW, simply because of the vessel that he inhabits. His TRUE nature, however, IS spiritual... celestial. Just a "super" as ALL spirit beings. The "calling", then, isn't to become a "supernatural" being - that is the RE-calling: to RETURN... to the "superior" nature. The calling... is to be a king and priest... which "superior" nature one must possess in order to fill such a role.

  Being charismatic has nothing to do with any of this. That is just a word people use for those who are somewhat persuasive with their words. Christ, however, wasn't persuasive solely due to his words: his acts showed who he was and was the impetus for many that followed him to do so. He put his money where his mouth was: he walked... the talk. Unlike most charismatics: they tend to put OTHERS' money... where THEIR mouths are.

  I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  Twitch

  Some thoughts here, if I may,

  The originator of this thread asked for proof of God or Christ without a holy book. Proof in the context of what and how she/he is seeking it will not be provided.

  That there will be no proof of the existence of god is understandable and a fair opening statement. It is perplexing that there will be no evidence presented of the man known as jesus, of which one might think there is proof. The divinity of god would be unquestionable by definition, the divinity of the human jesus is another matter of context indeed...;)

  However, God does not leave the world without a witness. If it's not presented in the way YOU think it should be, that's of no significance. God doesn't respond to the demands of humans like He's their personal lackey. You can't be angry enough, vile enough, dis-believing enough, pathetic enough to MAKE Him respond. Without the blood of His Son, your sin separates you from Him.

  It always seems to come down to sin and our imperfection, anger, lack of faith or humility, etc when we use our minds (and hearts) in questioning and reasoning the things that are are so obviously open to interpretation, given the diversity of the beliefs in the divine. If there was a universal, undeniable commonly witnessed consensus on god, perhaps one would be a fool not to believe. The reality is that this is not the case in the world. And what is a christian reaction to a witness of god or belief of a creator that is not presented as a christian thinks it should? How is that different from an athiest reaction to belief in god? Are atheists more sinful than non-christian believers? Obviously the topic arouses emotion and understandably so. Questions, eh? Blocking faith at every turn,...;)

  I always wondered exactly what JW's were 'witnesses' of. A witness is one who can give personal testimony in a judicial court. But JW's personal testimony consisted of their beloved WT Society or their 'anointed remnant' or whatever. On the flip-side, the God and Father of the Universe provides the world with living breathing eye-witnesses. Witnesses to the effect that Christ is who His people claim He is, witnesses to the effect that He lived, died, and was resurrected. Witnesses to the effect that He lives, breathes, and makes Himself known to those that belong to Him. Witnesses to the claim that YOU can also come and take life's water for free.

  Well, as former JWs, many might say they were witnesses to the truth. Many would now say that was false and have now found the truth. If the point is the validity of witness testimony as proof of the truth, if the witness' statement changes, does that affect the validity of the testimony? If one believed in the jw truth and is now a non-believer, is that any less valid than the other? If personal testimony is valid evidence of god, then all testimony towards his existence should be considered, including that which doesn't know him/it by his christian name, even that of those who didn't see him at the scene. This would seem to be fair representation for the truth, if testimony is all one can base the case on.

  The problem with some is that they would rather stay focused on the person giving the testimony, instead of taking the testimony and looking beyond the person giving it, and going the subject of the testimony. All of Heaven awaits eagerly for the repentance of ONE person. There is great rejoicing when that happens. Christ LIVES. If you receive proof, it will be YOUR proof. And like Shelby said, YOUR proof will not benefit anyone but you. But if you share your proof, perhaps someone else will receive enough faith to get their own proof too.

  Focusing on someone who is giving testimony is a basic principle of court, if i can continue the analogy. If one didn't see the miracle or didn't hear the voice or doesn't feel the same way, one can only consider the testimony of those that did/do. I don't think it's a problem at all if it isn't a problem for those willingly testifying to it. Nobody cross examines someone who isn't on the stand,..;) And perhaps going beyond the person giving their testimony might include considering other people's testimony and their views on what they saw/hear/feel. Again, if everyone would take the stand and say they see/hear/feel the same thing and know it by the same name, then there would be little reasonable doubt as to god did it, what his name is and where he lives. The fact and reality that this isn't the case in the world says something and should to an objective observer, such as a jury or someone looking for their own proof, their truth. I would agree that if the questioner seeks it, it will come to them.

  Ahh, questions, always with the questions...:)
• 

  Qcmbr

  AGuest - believe it or not I don't believe a word you say regarding your nocturnal chats with overlord Jah. You are just another preacher. You aren't the first nor will you be the last and you a certainly one of the least persuasive I have ever talked to. As such realise my comments aren't always aimed at your particular version of magic man. My comments stand and you have not answered them at all.

  Night. Though I hope for your sleeping habits you get at least one other convert and you can get Jah to split his time with them so allowing you some sleep. You need it badly by the sound of it.
• 

  El Nunya

  Dear Twitch, the following is in all sincerity and with the kindest of regards. It's difficult to project tone and expression without stopping and inserting something or putting smiley faces every so often...etc..

  You are certainly free to ask any and as many questions as you wish. I did. When you finish with the questions and realize that NONE have been answered to your satisfaction, what then? Been there too. When nothing and no one in the entire world gives you adequate explanations for the questions you present, where can you go, who or what are you to believe? When you've reached the end of your rope, isolated in your distrust and disgust of religion and the many 'voices' it presents, what is left? When THERE IS NOTHING ELSE, not your own intellect, not philosophical 'depth' and discussion, and not the intellectual/philosophical logic and reasonings of anyone else, that will be the first indication that you're heading in the right direction.

  When you realize that NOBODY on the face of this planet can give you what you seek, lift your eyes/heart heavenward and ask for truth. Let the self-defenses and barriers crumble. Come empty handed, naked and broken, in the innocence and acceptance of a child. If you can get to this place in the depths of your being, you will get your answers. Of course, the obstacle is always within man. We detest vulnerability. We build defenses just to deal with life. We create these barriers for our own protection and to hide who and what we truly are. To divest ourselves of.....our created persona (both inside and out)....the one we project in the physical world, is an impossible feat humanly speaking. But the spiritual realm is acutely aware of the happenings in the physical. And if our utmost desire is to be 'real', to be 'pure', to be 'innocent', before an infinitely pure and holy God, then who you REALLY are will be made manifest and that will lead you where you need to be. And yes, the fault lies with humanity. Sorry, but that is the truth.

  A couple of things.......no, atheists sin is the same as anybody elses sin. There is inherent/intrinsic sin (the condition of human nature. This is the one we have no control over) and there is expressed sin, this is the one that we try oh so hard to control, thereby creating within and without ourselves 'self-rightousness.' Works-based religion capitalizes on this one, as does anyone who believes they can make themselves 'good' enough (by following a prescribed set of laws and regulations) to the extent that they believe God owes them something. The other thing....my testimony will never be proof of truth for you or for anyone else. My testimony is not about me, but is a living witness of Christ's reality. I can only declare what I've been given. I have my 'proof'. I can tell you He is real.....that He's alive even to this day.....and that He's active in the lives of His people. I can declare that He is the Son of God, that His Father is one and the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. I can tell you that He weeps because of the darkness saturating the JW's. And I can tell you that He is still sending people to be a witness for Him, up close and personal.

  If you so chose to approach His Holiness, ask Him to prepare you....that is, if that's your desire...and if you truly want to know the answers to your questions. Or you can stay on websites like this and post questions that are never going to be answered to your satisfaction, and sit back in your complacency, philosophizing the non-existence of a god that you refuse to come to on His terms. In the end, it's your spiritual journey. Own it. ;)
• 

  jonathan dough

  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:20, 21
• 

  Twitch

  If you so chose to approach His Holiness, ask Him to prepare you....that is, if that's your desire...and if you truly want to know the answers to your questions. Or you can stay on websites like this and post questions that are never going to be answered to your satisfaction, and sit back in your complacency, philosophizing the non-existence of a god that you refuse to come to on His terms. In the end, it's your spiritual journey. Own it. ;)

  I do and questions remain part of it. Still don't think that's a bad thing, I kinda like it actually. Doesn't mean I don't have convictions like yourself. I've already been to that place of nothing left, the edge, the bottom, the abyss, long time ago now and it wasn't god who saved me, I did.

  I bear witness to another side of the coin, an opinion and journey obviously different from your own though it's fairly clear you don't consider mine complete because of your experiences. S'alright by me. Maybe you have walked a mile in my shoes. Maybe I've been in yours. Maybe you're a mile away and I have your shoes, lol. Perhaps your personal opinion of me is more telling of you than I. In any case, fare well in your journey, sir/maam, I shall do the same.

  I'm sorry if my questions offend you in some way, it wasn't the intention as I've nothing against you personally but they are relevant to points made in relation to the thread topic and were only meant as an exercise in reason and critical thinking. We're all entitled to our opinions ;)
• 

  El Nunya

  I make no judgement of you whatsoever. It is not my place to judge. Your journey is your own, and is every bit as valid as mine. Forgive me for giving you that impression. My response was triggered by my mistaken belief that you were somehow interested in another's personal journey. And yes, I have walked in your shoes. And no, your questions do not offend me. And I have no animosity towards you at all. We are one and the same. We're all in need of a Savior (and that is truth for everyone). And one other thing....you do not know my opinion of you, so it can't be telling of anything at this juncture. Now....give me my shoes back!! :)

  PS. Would you be so kind as to explain to me how to put text that you want to comment on in the little box?? Please??
• 

  Twitch

  No worries :)

  As for quotation style formatting;

  • copy text to reply box
  • apply paragraph breaks including blank lines for responses
  • put the cursor at the START of the line/paragraph you wish to quote,
  • select the Styles dropdown box and select Quote
  • if you select Quote again, it goes back to default paragraph style
  • you may remove any/all formatting by selecting text and using the White Eraser button "Remove formatting"

  If you select all text in question and apply Quote, it sometimes doesn't work and gets funky if there's paragraph breaks. Breaking it up first and then Quoting seems to work best
• 

  El Nunya

  No worries :)

  Thank you very much! It's a bit of a challenge to get the text to copy and paste. Had to use the 'Paste as Plain Text' icon. And then a box popped up and the copied text appeared there. Then had to click 'Insert'. Is that normal?

  As for quotation style formatting;

  copy text to reply box
  apply paragraph breaks including blank lines for responses
  put the cursor at the START of the line/paragraph you wish to quote,
  select the Styles dropdown box and select Quote
  if you select Quote again, it goes back to default paragraph style
  you may remove any/all formatting by selecting text and using the White Eraser button "Remove formatting"
  If you select all text in question and apply Quote, it sometimes doesn't work and gets funky if there's paragraph breaks. Breaking it up first and then Quoting seems to work best

  Thxs again. I rarely post and am not familiar with all the gadgets.
• 

  Twitch

  It's a bit of a challenge to get the text to copy and paste.

  Yea, something about the code for this reply box app, it doesn't like mice. Perhaps there's a plugin or setting but I usually use CRTL x,c,v for cut, copy & paste, respectively. Hold down the CRTL key and hit v to paste, etc. It's one of many keyboard shortcuts and get around the mouse edit thing in this app.

  Paste as Plain Text gets you to the same place but you lose any special formatting. However, the quote styles thing reacts funny to special formatting so basic text and paragraphs are easiest to work with when quoting.