Proof of God or Christ without a holy book (page 2)

Awen

I said I often receive understanding when I ask for and/or seek it. Sometimes when I don't ask for and/or seek it. Understanding as in I might now know the answer and the reasons for something that I previously did not understand.

@ Tammy

So you attribute this understanding to Christ?

Have you considered that you might be experiencing a very common phenomenon known as the unconscious mind?

The unconscious mind can be seen as the source of night dreams and automatic thoughts (those that appear without apparent cause); the repository of memories that have been forgotten but that may nevertheless be accessible to consciousness at some later time; and the locus of implicit knowledge, i.e. all the things that we have learned so well that we do them without thinking. One familiar example of the operation of the unconscious is the phenomenon where one fails to immediately solve a given problem and then suddenly has a flash of insight that provides a solution maybe days later at some odd moment during the day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconscious_mind#Unconsciousness_versus_nonconsciousness

This does seem a plausible explanation except that you believe it to be something outside of your own mind.

Is it not outside the realm of possibilities that you could be mistaken? I offer as proof that you as well as most every member of this forum (myself included) thought that the Governing Body represented God and Christ and were to be followed though they offered no proof other than their own words.

FlyingHighNow

Awen, were you raised in the org?

Awen

No. I was converted when I was 19, got out at 29.

Broken Promises

God and/or Christ cannot be proven (to someone else anyway). Otherwise there would be no debate. No question.

Why IS there a debate in the first place? Why isn't there irrefutable proof of a God or a Christ?

The Quiet One

Bp: Because then even people without 'faith' would have to believe in Jesus/Jehovah.. Whether you cease to exist or live forever in some wonderful afterlife is decided by how much 'faith' you have in something without any irrefutable evidence..Not by just trying to be a good person according to your beliefs. You clearly haven't been keeping up with your weekly bible reading.

Broken Promises

Quiet One,

You're correct, it's been well over a decade since I attended a meeting, let alone kept up with the weekly bible reading.

bohm

Awen: I have encountered two different types of answers to that type of question:

The first type is of the "i can sence God/Jesus". I think there are plenty of reasons to be suspicious, but one of the more powerfull is to look at how many people make very similar claims about ghosts, elves, magic stones/items, voodoo and very different gods. Also, the claims are suspiciously familiar to hallucinations or vivid daydreaming -- to say it provocatively, how can we take these very subtle claims of people sensing god serious, and at the same time outright reject very clear claims of seing and hearing things made daily by people at mental facilities?

The second type is the brute-force approach. You pick a subject which nobody really understand, make the claim that it should be explained by the unbeliever, and only god can explain it. A popular example: "Without god, how did nothing come from something?".

What is important to note is the argument is allways worded very carefully to shift the burden of evidence, and tend to fall completely apart when one tries to spell it out. The above claim (for instance) rest on the following:

We dont know where the universe came from (true)
It is problematic we cannot explain that. It must be possible to provide an answer to that question, ie. exlain how something came from nothing (i am very suspicious of that claim, but lets assume it is true)
God explains it (this is where the real problems are)

The problem is the last statement. The theistic explanation is allways a variation of: "God did it!". In other words, the argument become:

"You cant explain how something came from nothing. Thats bad. But i can explain it. assuming God exist, God could just have made it!"

In other words the theist assume something (God) exist in order to explain why something exist!!

To hide the bad logic, theists often make claims that god is not "something" and go to great lengths to make convoluted defintions of "something", "God" and so on to confuse everyone into accepting it as true. i just dont see why it works. At some point, a magic, powerfull creature who can do everything must count as something. And even if he dont count as "something", why am i not free to dream up a magic physical law which i claim is not "something" as well?

The above type of argument is made for many, abstract and ill-defined claims like: "Where did moral values come from?" (theist explanation: "assume there is some guy with high moral values, that explains why there is moral values!"), "what is the first cause" (theist explanation: "Assume there is some guy who is just 'first cause' of everything. That explains it!"), "how did intelligence come into existence" (theist explanation: "assume there is some really really big intelligence. it just made us, less intelligent, creatures") and so on.

MoneurMallard

Here is my belief on this topic: No book character can be proved to exist outside of the context of the book. Monsieur Mallard is a character in an Edgar Allan Poe novel for instance, and I have taken that name and applied it to my living breathing self. The same can be said of the Jesus story. One can emulate those characters, bring them to life, and prove their existence, but NOT without the book. Without the book, if someone were to ask about Monseiur Mallard after I die, and many people know me as Monsier Mallard, I would have no proof of my existence without my facebook and Youtube channel, and now, this forum (Jehovahs-wetness.net).

Moreover, you may be interested in Deism. I am a Deist, for I believe in a supernatural creative power, one that is so loving and caring in it's nature that it allows us to make all our own decisions, think for ourselves, discover and realize all it's given us on our own without interference or interjection, (yes we die sometimes during these processes, tough shit), and expand and grow as ONE on our own. This creative power has already given us ALL we need or will ever need. It does answer prayers, but only because our intent on whatever it is we want is so strong that we work so hard at it anyway. It has given us eternal life under the sun, through the agricultural process of regeneration, rebirth and living forever through the act or progeny. It doesn't go to war or pick favorite nations. It doesn't require any blood or men hanging on trees, it doesn't ask us to eat it's flesh and drink it's blood, and most importantly it doesn't let us pin our mistakes on him.

Shalom

Andrew

punkofnice

After 50 years of JW indoctrination and having Joe Hoover shoved up my arse I don't care anymore.

I see no real evidence that Napoleon even existed.

I see NO evidence of any of my prayers being answered. Everything I've ever prayed about I've had to sort out myself.

Is there a God? Right now I don't give a monkey's because whether you believe of not the same things happen to you.

tec

Have you considered that you might be experiencing a very common phenomenon known as the unconscious mind?

I have considered this yes. And no it is not outside the realm of possibility.

Could I misinterpret this hearing or understanding? Sure, I'm human. But it would just mean that I misunderstood the process. Doesn't mean that God and Christ do not e xist just because I e xpected something (or looked for something and applied it to myself) out of eagerness .

I would also have to dismiss the one time I did hear a clear, quiet, calm voice "send him to me"... could have been my own imagination. (that has never happened like that before mind you) Or every time I asked for something that I had tried and failed to get on my own (strength, peace, patience, etc), and received it... could have been a placebo effect. Or my prayers being answered... could be coincidence. (many coincidences)

The above is a lot of evidence for me to dismiss. Mind you, we can e xplain anything away. Anything at all. Even if God were to shout down from 'the heavens'... "mass hypnosis, satellite, aliens"... anything but God ;)

However, my faith is not based upon any of the above - the above is just evidence that demonstrates my faith, for me. My faith in God is based on Christ. My faith in Christ is based on my love for Him. For the things he taught, the things he did, the way he was and is. I can't believe in Him, and not believe in the One He said sent Him.

And yes, I do feel Him.

I don't e xpect any of my evidence to convince anyone else other than me. Perhaps it is enough for someone else to consider the possibility of Christ and God being true and real, and perhaps that person will seek them out on their own. But that part is out of my hands.

Peace,

Tammy

Proof of God or Christ without a holy book

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