Proof of God or Christ without a holy book

by Awen 131 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Awen

  @ XJW4EVR The comments about the Bible not being reliable have come from others on these forums. I have noticed a certain disparity myself.

  Jeremiah 8:8 ""'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?"

  The verse seems to indicate that there are things written in the Torah (by the scribes) that are false and Jeremiah is calling the scribes out on it.

  @ FlyingHighNow In regards to your comments about supposed badgering. I don't see it as badgering. No one is coming to your home or knocking on your door and taking up your time (or anyone else's) without your consent. A reply isn't mandatory on any thread. People reply because they want to.
• 

  Anony Mous

  The problem with most biblical accounts is the lack of archeological and historical evidence. If there were such a person that was perfect and a healer somebody outside his followers should've noted it. Same goes for the Exodus account, King David etc. etc.

  As I said before, Romans were very meticulous in keeping track of cultural shifts, internal religious and political (tribal) issues in areas they conquered, who they tried and killed even sending letters with the details of such executions to their higher-ups. Killing a so-called "King of the Jews" would've made for a heck of a resume for whoever ordered his death. However none of Christ's disciples or apostles made ANY (documented) attempt at retrieving, preserving or even referencing ANY such documents. Same goes for any 'miracle' - they are not documented outside the books so you only get a single, biased viewpoint on the facts (and people would notice people getting raised from the dead, people escaping from deep dungeons, troublemakers like Paul, earthquakes etc.).

  The Christians eventually did get noticed because of their aggressive recruiting but the only reliable accounts (from historians and Romans) start at least 50-100 years later than when Jesus supposedly walked the earth. Either way, you can't prove a God or any spirit being exist because of it's nature. We now know we can induce the feeling of such a being by influencing specific brain areas with magnets, certain substances or even simply by psychological pressure so you have to ask yourself, is God just a construct of our own imagination? How do you know that what you feel God is, anyone else on this earth will have a similar concept about it?
• 

  wobble

  Thanks for the thread Awen, one of the best on here for some time,good questions and reasonings.

  I love to see debate of the order we have seen on this thread, each side robustly putting their points across, yet mostly in a respectful way.

  The point about the Bible has been well made on here, interesting colllection of books it may be, but as it has no provenance, it is nothing more than that, certainly not an authority on anything, or even to be trusted in any way, each writers had his own agenda, making sure that truth, especially historical truth, was very much subsumed.

  Proof of God or Christ withiut a holy book ? I won't hold my breath waiting.

  Thanks again for the thread.
• 

  ProdigalSon

  Why, if there is no creator, does the human race seek him out? Why did they ever start in the first place? Who taught them? Why if there is no spiritual, do so many people seek out/feel/sense something beyond the physical?

  I think there is no irrefutable proof because most of us can only look with our physical senses and are loathe to believe that there could be more beyond that, which we just don't know yet how to access or test.

  Tammy you make some excellent points here. It all boils down to our physical senses. If my radio's antenna is broken, do I blame all the radio stations for taking the day off? Or claim that they don't exist?

  The problem, as all the great Masters and philosophers have tried to tell us, is that the greater reality is beyond presently "normal" human senses. When I say "normal", I mean to specify that we are evolving, so what is normal now may be considered a handicap at some point in the future. If the prophecies based on our position in the cosmos are true, it will happen very soon. Instead of "reading" a book, we will be able to get the "download" instead. Instead of speaking all the time, we will have the option of communicating telepathically. For fish and birds, this is a normal part of life when they swim or fly in formation, for example.

  "Well, Dr. Martin, my pineal gland isn't working right. I couldn't pick up last night's broadcast by Gabriel the Archangel because something just isn't right."

  After examination.....

  "No problem Mrs. Jones, you're under too much stress from not eating properly, and it's making your thyroid go haywire. When this happens, the pineal gland intermittently shuts down, and your entire endocrine system is out of balance. I'm prescribing a week in the Bahamas. When you're better, you can re-download it."

  My dog can hear sounds that I can't. Do I think he's bat-shit crazy? No, I just know that there are things he is privy to that I'm not. Not YET anyway. And, everyone is at a different level. Some can "hear" things, and they can convince themselves it was "Jesus". For some, it's just the subconscious mind. For others, it is the actual consciousness of Jesus Christ. He is alive and well on the Astral Plane, as we all are. When we dream at night, we prove it to ourselves, because that's where dreams take place.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  Discussions like this often come down to our own idea of what god is. Like many others I don’t have faith in Jehovah, Christ, Jaheshua, Allah, Zeus, Odin or any of the named gods. No one can offer objective proof that these gods exist or that they don’t exist. It comes down to whether we want to believe in the existence of one of them and consider our choice to be ‘almighty God.’ Such a conclusion can only be based on our interpretation of our own subjective internal experiences. Acceptance of experiences that others share is also a factor. The result is faith in God.

  Those that choose not to believe in any of the gods on offer are not automatically staunch atheists. Nor does it mean they have concluded that humans are the only intelligent life in the universe.

  On a probability basis it is likely that there are other forms of life on other planets which those creatures are suited to. Maybe there are beings that are invisible to the human eye that do not need the surface of a planet to dwell on. Perhaps other dimensions of consciousness do exist beyond our present knowledge and an ultimate source.

  If we are to be objective, until these things and the existence of a god can be proved beyond doubt, the concept of an all powerful invisible being must remain a theory or a possibility. As a mere mortal, air breathing, earth dwelling, carbon unit , I am content to accept my limitations and continue on my spiritual journey with an open mind, knowing that my time on earth will run out without ever knowing the secrets of the universe.
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  I'm thinking that a true atheist has never felt God and probably will never feel God. Then there are people who just don't know if there is a God, so they say there isn't a God & that they are atheists, but something may happen to change that declaration. With someone who has never felt "anything up there", I'm thinking they might never feel anything up there.

  Then there are people who feel something up there from their earliest memories on. And though most people who do feel God wax and wane in their closeness to God, they never have a time when they are convinced there is absolutely no god, never has been a god and never will be a god.

  I've met both kinds of people my whole life. Those who feel God and those who never have.
• 

  THE GLADIATOR

  FlyingHighNow That’s an interesting viewpoint based on your life’s experience. For most of my life I did believe in God. Bring raised by strict parents as a Jehovah's Witness, God to me was Jehovah. I believed in him, talked to him, worshiped him and became a Pioneer.

  As I grew into an adult I began to examine the evidence. It was found wanting. I left the Watchtower Society and searched for a more loving God. I found much of what I sought in eastern religion. Alas still no proof. I lacked the one thing that was required – total faith.

  There are many like me who did once believe but no longer do. We had something up there but no longer do. We are prepared to believe again but live by that telling adage. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!"
• 

  Vanderhoven7

  LOL....This thread reminds me of Descartes' problem. He could prove to himself that he existed ( Cogito ergo sum) , but he couldn't prove it to anyone else....i.e. he might have been part of someone elses' dream. Someone might have challenged him, "Prove you exist" and then I'll believe in you. Although he made the attempt, the fact is that Descartes had no such burden of proof.

  Similarly, neither Yahweh nor His children have this kind of burden either. Only God can do the impossible. Besides such proof would not change/transform one life. Case in point: Yahweh proved Himself at the Red Sea and weeks later the King's kids were worshipping a golden calf.

  But by grace, through faith, God will always, and without exception reveal/prove Himself to those who recognize their absolute spiritual poverty; those who mourn over their state and hunger and thirst after a righteousness which is alien to them, but not to Jesus Christ.
• 

  J. Hofer

  Like many others I don’t have faith in Jehovah, Christ, Jaheshua, Allah, Zeus, Odin or any of the named gods. No one can offer objective proof that these gods exist or that they don’t exist.

  actually there's plenty of proof that jehovah, christ, allah, zeus and odin don't exist. there's no proof that some personally made up god with no measurable attributes doesn't exist, just like there's no proof that russels teapot isn't orbiting the globe.

  I'm thinking that a true atheist has never felt God and probably will never feel God.

  whatever "true atheism" means. some simply come to the conclusion that those feelings are pretty common and aren't necessarily unique to their current idea of a god. that's where many believers have to add in demons and other stuff to reinforce their "true feelings".
• 

  Knowsnothing

  The discussion on God (adnauseum) in the world so far.

  A Theist: This is THE God, the only true God, the one I believe in and the only one that exists. My version is truth [Allah, Yahweh (Trinitarian, Modalist, Monarchist, etc.)]. I am open to investigate new evidence, however, and reformulate my ideas and beliefs based upon such new findings (hopefully, but not likely).

  A Deist: God certainly must exist, but given the probable fallability of any so called 'Holy Book', I subscribe to no such defined constraints (religion). I am open to investigate new evidence, however, and reformulate my ideas and beliefs based upon such new findings (hopefully).

  An Atheist: I can't see God, nor prove his existence, therefore I find no room to believe in him. I am open to investigate new evidence, however, and reformulate my ideas and beliefs based upon such new findings (hopefully, but not likely for the 'hardcores').

  I suppose I am a deist at this point. I do not subscribe to a specific set of religious dogma/practice, but the evidence for a Creator seems too great for me. I am happy to share my point of view, but endevour not to be evangelistic. To each their own. It has been repeated many times, but I will quote it again, "Religion is a snare and a racket."

  My 'beef' with God is why? Why such an intelligent creator allows all this craziness in the world to ensue? Why all the religious beliefs? Why do it through an ancient set of writings? Why not reveal yourself to the WORLD, in a manner befitting an ALMIGHTY GOD? Why not make a CLEAR CASE for yourself, and your identity?